Shyvana - the forgotten Champion ?

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Verxint

Senior Member

02-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axhliay View Post
A big one that was discussed there was her mix match scalings. Her main damage move scales on AD, while the rest of her kit is pretty much AP. So in order to get good damage you have to negate half of her kit. Which doesn't help her at all.

A look into that would also be helpful.
This is fine.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

copperpoint

Senior Member

02-03-2013

A long time ago Shyvana was used to scale her W of AP as well, but Riot changed that into AD at some point. I am not even entirely sure if bringing that back would really benefit her.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Paaske Da Bes

Senior Member

02-03-2013

@Copperpoint
I just want to remind the thread (As posted in the feedback part) that shyvana's scaling on dmg items are in actuality really high. Her skills generally doesn't have the highest base damage beyond the first level. compared to other top bruisers.

She scales better than jax with following stat combinations: "Cooldown reduction", "Ad + crit%", "Ad+as". Also if she had jax'es 74% attack speed from his passive you could output more damage than jax around the 3rd or 4th damage item. (Just for the comparing the dmg to something familiar)

Without the attack speed it's not really due able without going to be glass cannon, and even then.

(without considering damage reduction and armor/mr)

Might as well leave this in here I said in the previous thread:

Personally I believe shyvana should have a new design for purpose. She's a bit of an odd jungler compared to the traditionally ones. She doesn't gank well. Her clear speed isn't that amazing anymore. Counterjungling is more risky due to early wards and slower clear. So my thought was to make her a hypercarry bruiser potential. Sort of how jax is viewed but from the jungle.

With the changes to defensive items and added penetration, ment generally 2 things for shyvana. CC becomes more important (harder to survive -> CC stronger since you take more damage in the same span of time. Also ment that damage was more worth in compare to defense.

It sort of meant that shyvana couldn't count on burnout to provide the damage cause she couldn't stay long enough alive in teamfights in the middle of everyone.


Regarding top lane power, she goes in decline around lvl 7. My suggesting was to give her free attack speed on lvl 11 and 16 ult. Her lvl 11 and 16 feels kinda unnoticeable. Sample up to 50% attack speed at 11 and 100% at 16, maybe even depending on how much rage you have (may or may not considered at 100 rage for the duration of dragon form) which would give some counterplay when dragon form is down.

Why this over pure AD/crit% or more defensive stats. The reason for not choosing AD is it syncs worse with items (typically not building much haste / crit on bruisers for damage). Crit% would incresse the aoe damage far more than haste would, through it syncs less with hydra for aoe. Defensive would only promote stacking more defensive items, when the core problem in her scaling is she scales so hard yet can't get the stats to make it work. Attack speed would work well overall with syncing with on-hit her kit and hydra for tank builds.

Quote:
A big one that was discussed there was her mix match scalings. Her main damage move scales on AD, while the rest of her kit is pretty much AP. So in order to get good damage you have to negate half of her kit. Which doesn't help her at all.

A look into that would also be helpful.
The AP scaling on things like shyvana etc. are normally made to make baron more beneficial without adding a new build path. The other option would be no scaling at all. I don't get why people are making shush a fuzz about it when she scales really well on damage stats already. The whole idea of her kit goes around auto attacking, and every abilities scales as you get more physical dmg items (E armor pen 15%). The ult doesn't directly help your physical dmg through (counting single target).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Cevonis

Senior Member

02-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by copperpoint View Post
Dear Riot,
I highly value your efforts to rebalance S3, as the S3 patch threw some things around. I also like that you give comments on what you do and why, at least for me it makes understanding a lot easier.

I open this thread to move some attention to this thread in the champion feedback area:
Shyvana's state in Season 3:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3018892

Currently 14 pages + long, but no red so far. Which gives us over there the feeling that we discuss a lot, but nobody really listenes. So maybe I can get some attention this way.

CONTENT:
Especially the jungle and the items changed a lot, as did lots of champs. A lot of tweaking and even some reworks. But for some reason Shyvana was never touched, although heavily effected by S3.

In S2 she was THE fastest jungler and still able to counterjungle. Her laning was somewhat ok when played really well. But now she isnt really the top notch jungler anymore. Lee or Nocturn are at least as fast as her, can gank and are saver in cj as they have cc or escapes. And she got indirectly nerfed, as ats got changed and by the fact that other champs make way better use of the new items then her. In the really cc infested meta she feels somewhat outdated and without a real kit.

Basically there is always a pick of at least 3 other champs that can do everything better you want to do with her, be it laning, bruiser, carry, jungle/gank, jungle/tank or jungle/CJ.
After many pages of discussions (all peacefully and no flaming/trolling ) most poeple have the feeling that she simply doesnt make up for what she cant do.

She has no cc, no gap closer (besides her ulti), no sustain, no (good) poke or escape and is highly item dependant. You have to buy items to do what other champs simply get with her kit.
She can hardly punish enemy mistakes, as she gets stuck to minions A LOT.
Her laning can be succesfull to say the least, but she lacks everything a laner usually has, you can play her top for fun, but in ranked she is a pretty big risk.


There are many ideas for possible changes on her.

Purpose: She plays somewhat like a jungle (or mediocre top lane) carry, as she gets better to the lategame. (Currently you try to afk farm like crazy) But she doesnt have anything to support those roles. With the last jungle patch, she kills the small creeps quickly, but she takes way too long to kill the big ones. With rather low health, delayed killing time (big creeps) and no escape, the risk of cj is currently way too high for her, if you want to do that, pick Udyr or Lee.
Some say that she is a great duelist, which is only partial true. Without a Cc item the outcome of most battles gets dictated by the enemy. If he has cc or escapes there is barely anything to force an engage on him+ her dmg is made to kill those who stay, which is rather slow.

Stats + scaling Her HP scaling could be better.
Some of her skills could scale of AD/AP better too.


Passive.
Lets say it could be better

Q- Twin bight- Maybe another speed effect between activation <> hit, that way she could still use her W for escapes and be a little faster overall. // It could have some other interaction with her E like: E+Q = 1sec stun or other effects. // Double dmg against monsters ?

W- Firespin- The speedbonus isnt that high to begin with and isnt enough to chase. Usually used as a weak escape. Without hitting its only a 3sec duration.
- Fades off over time - I guess its was some kind of design from ancient times, but currently I dont see one reason why it should fade off.
- Removes CC effects on activation. (This was a big point, she has no cc and is highly vulnerable to such, why doesnt she have some form of protection? Escpecially if you take to mind that the is supposed to tak a high risk by CJ.)
- If you want to buff her early dmg or punish more: Increasing dmg over time + ignite after 4 seconds. (Usually big minions, monsters or teamfight)
- Reduce Cooldown over Lv.. Lik 8 sec when maxed?
- A partial scaling of AP or AD on her E was an idea too.
- moving through targets ?
- longer base duration for more mobility?

E- Fireball- Now this was a big one. To a lot of people this hard to land skillshot feels highly unrewarding, even if it hits. The armor shred is her only team ability, but it makes no sense for herself, as most of her dmg is magical. The dmg is low and thanks to ap, it cant be (effectively) pushed. The armor shred is always the same 15% no matter which lv.
As long as you stay away from Shyvana, even a squishy doesnt have to dodge it, as the dmg is rather low.

Though I am not used to many champs, I currently cant think of a single one, that has a skillsot that does close to nothing and depends on something else to follow afterwards to be of real use.

Ideas: Make it hit through targets, like in her ulti. (hitting the small creeps in camps while you are directly in front oft the big one hurts.)
Could be solved by a small aoe blast on hit too.
- no animation time
- scales of ad in some way
- On hit effect was an idea too, though it worrys me how that would work in her dragon form.
- Other possible effects: Reduced armor+mgres, reduced healing (useful in lane), ignite when below X% health... some reason for an enemy to actually dodge it.
Gold when hit while debuffed ? Stun when hit with Q afterwards - would make it more scary and useful in teamfights without making her ganks stronger.

R- Dragonform- Its her ONLY form of CC effect and her ulti on top if it- and it gets stopped by any kind of cc/stun, pushup or knockback, thats harsh.
Currently we discuss if her armor/mgres bonnus is up to date. It makes her slightly more tanky, but nothing close to what she needed to not melt after a dive in 2 seconds.
Maybe a slightly longer stun after initiate?
Increased range - Like when chogath grows.
Dmg bonus ? Anti cc effects? Or a different tank ability, like reduced dmg by x%, maybe based on her LV (dragonage) to support more of a hypercarry status.


In general a lot of players seem to have problems with picking items on her too.
Its not that she has a small pool, its that she wastes a lot of stats and doesnt synergize as well as other champs.

Some Quotes to finnish:
"Shyvana just isnt scary anymore"
"Fed and still useless"
"If you pick Shyva I afk"

She gets mentioned nowhere, not in "whos the best jungler" threads nor in any champion related thread where you ask about dangerous opponents. Its like she doesnt exist at all.

Ok, that was a pretty big wall of text, but I hope you can see the thoughts the players put into it and maybe think about some buffs or reworks.

Just in case you didn't know it's:
Twin Bite
Burnout
Flame Breath
and Dragons Descent.


Also she wasn't just "ok" at top laning, i use to be able to win top lane 9 out of 10 times. She was a very strong top laner and i would like her to stay that way, make her viable for both jungle AND top lane, not just jungle.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

copperpoint

Senior Member

02-03-2013

@Paaske: Thanks again for letting me know. ^^
I will rephrase the part about scaling.
A buff on her Ulti would be nice, but like you mentioned, its not just a problem with one or 2 points on her skills, its much more then just that.

@Cevonis: I dont really bother the names, I just started to call the skills what I wanted to. ^^
About lane: To be honest, I never got to play her much in top lane S2.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ZedekiahCromwell

Senior Member

02-03-2013

The jungler on my 5s team has had great success with her as a dedicated split pusher. With communication and a team comp with her, she can really work. The enemy team just couldn't stop her split push due to our constant pressure, but ability to disengage quickly.

I know that doesn't mean much for solo queue, and I always feel for others who have a champ with issues (my main was Heimerdinger for quite a while, and I still love him). However, I guess I feel like she still has a small role she can play, much like Heimerdinger in push comps.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AR Manimal

Senior Member

02-03-2013

The new Trundle.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

copperpoint

Senior Member

02-03-2013

@Zedekiah: She becomes better in organized teams - yes, so does every other champ. Xin becomes even more powerful while still beeing a very good pick in rnd games.

@Ataean: NOOOO! Im not ready to give her to the troll yet !!!!

RIOOOOOOT !!!! Save the dragons!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

copperpoint

Senior Member

02-04-2013

New day, new patch.
Always checking if something is somehow related to Shyvana:

Merc. scimitar got cheaper, so in case we need it... ^^
Zekes herald became a bit more expensive, but gives 20% CDR now. So if we buy Zekes + Frozen heart we are capped already.
Or one of those + Bc or 30%, spirit visage is possible too against ap.

Considering that AD, Crit anc CDR are more cost- dmg efficent on her:
Ghostblade is a really nice pick now. Especially as it builds out of the now buffed av. blade (now 3G/sec)
The 20 armor pen is a bonus on top of it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

2pudge1cup

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-05-2013

She needs help. There's no doubt about it.

Sej, naut, rammus all got buffs coming into S3. All of them fare better in the woods than shyv. There's no doubt in my mind. I'm not sure what exactly that she needs - but she needs something to be a halfway competitive pick. She's a speed clearer/control jungler without the control, and she can't reliably use that speed to gank out.

I think she's the only jungler that got destroyed by S3 jungle changes. Everyone else ended up being better or the same than they were in S2. Some were slightly worse in comparison to others.

@the trundle comment: even he is a lot better of a pick than she is currently. Though I do have a soft spot for the troll I really am finding him to be strong and good.