Shyvana - the forgotten Champion ?

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ShacĂ´ Bot

Senior Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axhliay View Post
There's a few things that I wonder if people asking for a kind of CC understand about Shyvana,

Is that once you get close to a target, you deal massive outfront and sustained damage. Hence why the people that like to play her are people that get into the fight and get down to the nitty gritty.

If you gave her a CC, your increasing that strength more than 2 fold because she can now unload, and get away safer. If that happens, you could expect to see a few nerfs to compensate for it. Shes not that weak that she needs 12343212 buffs.

By keeping her without a CC, you can keep her damage the way it is, hell, I want a few buffs, but learning what would make her OP, and what wouldn't is the key to putting her into a good solid spot without sending her to the gangplank.

Its like Mordekaiser, he has no CC, no escape, but he makes up for it in sheer power. He teaches the same lesson as Shyvana. The longer that you are in a fight, the more dangerous you become.

Nothing serious, just a general observation of what people are saying. I'm for buffs as much the the next person, but I dont want her nerfed to a weaker spot a week later is all.

comparing morde to shyvana is like comparing kayle to tryndamere. Sure their ults do the same thing but because tryndamere is melee dps and has more scaling damage than base he automatically sucks. Kayle has massive dps output more than trynd until late late game, can build tanky, self heal/ms buff that isn't reliant on staying in prolonged fights.

Morde is ranged and can do damage in bursty spikes (even then he's not really a good pick these days is he?) from much more range than shyvana ever does. Range always beats out melee unless the melee is a tank/ does damage too fast for people to move away. Shyvana can do lots of damage...but it's dps not burst. AD Yi can do way more than shvyana with dps but he's never picked. Because dps + risk is simply undoable. DPS scales off crit but crit needs 2-3 multipliers before being useful.

Notice all current melee champions, they are all burst EXCEPT Olaf....but he gets anti CC ult which is what every melee adc really wishes they had.


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Corseth

Senior Member

02-12-2013

I'm not, and have never been comfortable with the fact that her ultimate is a glorified gap-closer.

This is the dragon champion, she turns into a giant dragon. If you look past the fancy graphics though, her dragon form has very negligible benefits to the dragon itself. The only two that makes much difference is the cone on firebreath, making it easier to hit the target and also apply the 15% armor shred, and the additional 10/15/20 resistances. But Burnout and Twin Bite get extremely limited benefit from dragon form (the aoe on dragon form twin bite is very small, and unlikely to hit more than 1 champ, while the dragon form burnout effect doesn't stack with the standard burnout damage, doesn't last very long, and doesn't do much damage). The only time you hit more than 1 champ with Twin Bite is right after casting the ulti and using it to bump people together. The only time 1 Twin Bite does any damage worth caring about was when you had a 5 Tiamat troll build in previous patches.

Realistically, it'd be a buff to Shyvana if she didn't have the actual dragon form at all and just had the dash and armor/mr part of it, since you could refresh the cooldown on the gap closer muuuuch quicker. And that's sad.

Nothing Shyvana does screams 'dragon' to me (leaves a fire trail -behind- her? has a fire breath whose primary benefits are an armor shred and bonus autoattack damage? Is based in theory around rapid autoattacks and running around with a speed buff?). Shyvana's always felt like "we have all these AS/on-hit items no one ever uses, let's make a champ designed around that" combo'd with "People on the forums want a dragon champ, let's slap a dragon theme on this AS/on-hit melee champ".

Anyhow. That's all an aside from her actual balance as a tanky melee champ. That's me frustrated by how her gameplay and her design don't meet up.

So as to her balance. She needs some more intrinsic tankiness, first. Early game the burst of a fire breath + autoattack + twin bite (so essentially 3 autoattacks and a 145% damage firebreath in a short window) is more than most champs put out. But this is real early game, -and it never really scales up-. Once you get past level 5 or so, virtually every champ in the game has more burst than Shyvana. That's fine, because she has virtually no downtime to her damage in return. She's got one of the highest sustained damage outputs out there. On the other hand she also lacks any natural way to stick to a target to apply it, and is possibly the most kiteable champion in the game (Volibear has better sticking once he gets to a target but has a harder time getting there than Shy, he and her rather compete for 'get kited like a boss without items to solve it').

None of that makes her weak per se; she's always been very item dependent, and she has good farming ability, so at least she's not stuck in the position of being item dependent with no farming ability (cough poppy cough). Her best stats have always been CDR and AS for damage, and tons of tankiness because of the sustained melee DPS nature of her kit.

The problem is the stuff that got nerfed item-wise was all stuff she wanted, and the stuff that got buffed item-wise was all stuff she didn't want. She does about a 60-40 split of physical to magical damage, so penetration changes help her very little. None of the new items are good on her (she can't stack black cleaver's debuff very fast, for instance, ravenous hydra is not as good as the old tiamat trick on her due to it only proccing off the main target on twin bite, etc). The mix of damage makes her hard to itemize against early game, but also makes her damage fall off a bit painfully late game due to all the scaling MR going around now and standard builds. She doesn't do quite enough magic damage late game to justify getting magic pen on her, but it's still almost half her damage output so magic resist you got to counter other champs (or just get by leveling up) takes a noticeable chunk out of her damage. Honestly the only new item that has any synergy with her is Zephyr, since Zephyr + Swiftness boots makes her substantially harder to kite. However, going back to why she needs some more inherent tankiness, you really have to be pretty fed already to get Zephyr since your first 2 items really need to be tanky items on her or she just explodes too fast to apply her damage.

Frankly, a small amount of flat resistances is kinda boring as an inherent tankiness stat.

Also, why is her base AS average? If you're trying to promote AS/on-hit builds (Twin bite scales exponentially when you combine CDR and AS, and is her only ability that really scales at all) with her, why wouldn't she have a very high natural AS, since AS items improve based on base AS. It'd also help her new jungling issues because of the jungle changes. ESPECIALLY since it's not like Shy can afford to stack Phantom Dancers or the like (aside from twin bite not scaling with crit that is). At best she can afford to slip 1 AS item into her build without sacrificing too much tankiness. I don't think we'd be risking her being a runaway powerhouse by giving her an unusually high base AS since it's so hard for her to stack lots of AS items.


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Rowanoake

Senior Member

02-12-2013

i like what's being said and I bump for Shyvana love.


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Paaske Da Bes

Senior Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
(aside from twin bite not scaling with crit that is).
I always considered twin bites damage the AA on the reset and the on hit damage. If we assume this, twin bite scales on crit. (Not considering the Q click at inappropriate times.)

Quote:
"we have all these AS/on-hit items no one ever uses, let's make a champ designed around that"
I'm pretty sure she was designed around a really fast clear time in the jungle using Q for proccing wiggles. Pretty sure the attack speed came as a response. I don't see her using malady either.

Quote:
She's got one of the highest sustained damage outputs out there.
Only when building dmg items. Even then certain champions will have more due to higher base dmg (jax, vi,olaf too if built in similar fasion regarding gold to dmg to mention a few). Therefore they can be tankier and more threatening at the same time.

Quote:
The problem is the stuff that got nerfed item-wise was all stuff she wanted
I guess we're referring to wits end? Apart from the overall attack speed unfinished item nurf (not really counting wits end it just increased the cost) it didn't really do much. You don't build the generally build the main intent of nerfing PD/(statikk shiv). ADC item. The only other item worth mentioning is infinity edge.

The defense items is a different issue.

Quote:
and the stuff that got buffed item-wise was all stuff she didn't want.
Warmog, Bork (basicly a better BT for no multiplying damage).

Quote:
She does about a 60-40 split of physical to magical damage
on a no item shyvana lvl 18 with no masteries and runes, it's pretty much right.

By the previous build I mentioned I was using it becomes close to 78-22 split.

Regarding aoe is the only thing you can consider getting magic pen for if fully built tank. (liandries cough)

Another thing is, health is generally the better defensive stat for EH till you have around 3k hp, according to another thread some time ago. That also kinda halts hybrid damage as well.

Quote:
Also, why is her base AS average? If you're trying to promote AS/on-hit builds (Twin bite scales exponentially when you combine CDR and AS, and is her only ability that really scales at all) with her, why wouldn't she have a very high natural AS,
You want her base attack speed (the one everything multiplies with) higher. I kinda gives problems in adding power to an early lane. Her problem was she isn't her pre 6. Regardless wits end is the only consistent attack speed item for her.

It won't really make a big difference late game and be unnoticeable late game. Unless you buff both attack speed per level and base AS.

Kinda goes back to my idea on incorporating attack speed into her ultimate. (more on that in previous posts)


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copperpoint

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Well, at least we all agree that there is something definately wrong with her. ^^

Did you see the thought on nerfing Xin, Vi and J4? Seems as if Riot wants to go the other way to help Shyvana:
"No no. shyvana is fine as she is, we just have to nerf every other champ to fit her better instead" XD


What the... Hydra doesnt work with her Q in dragonform ? 1st time I hear that. I always thouht it works on every hit, I mean ... whats the meaning in making it unique if it doesnt work on that at least ? Thats the whole meaning on her beeing so on hit focussed... when her Q in dragon form doesnt hit ALL on hit effects, then why do it at all ? THATS where it finally pays off to buy all those on hit stuff... otherwise we could just pick Jax or any other fast hitter for 100% results.


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ABullet19

Senior Member

02-13-2013

would it be to much to say that maybe her twin bite could do its aoe damage in human form and just receive a buff to damage in dragon form. This would help her clear times in jungle and the safety of the clear because of the faster time. And a slow attached to her fire breath since it feels somewhat unrewarding to use.


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Paaske Da Bes

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
would it be to much to say that maybe her twin bite could do its aoe damage in human form and just receive a buff to damage in dragon form. This would help her clear times in jungle and the safety of the clear because of the faster time.
This won't incresse clear time by anything noticable when the small creeps pretty much dies from burnout alone.

Quote:
Hydra doesnt work with her Q in dragonform ?
Hydra/tiamat can't proc on different targets with a 0.05 sec interval (to prevent the exponential tiamat 1 shot combo s2)

It does on the other hand still proc twice the on main target.

Quote:
Did you see the thought on nerfing Xin, Vi and J4? Seems as if Riot wants to go the other way to help Shyvana:
Generally when 1 champion starts dominating the scene in 1 role (vi xin j4 jungle) they tend to be nurfed. You can look back to naut as well.

Same could be said when shyvana just came out and M4 owned with her, she recieved a few nurfs. Champions that ain't situationally picks ain't balanced cause it doesn't leave room for other.


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copperpoint

Senior Member

02-13-2013

I know, I was just kidding. ^^

Seriously, I always thought that Tiamat, Hydra was maybe THE best item for her simply because of the possible dmg you could do if you really somehow manage to get more than only 2 targets with your dragon Q, but this... now its really useless.

The one shot combo was already not possible anymore since the effect is unique... it doesnt say anything about an extra interval... stupid item. *rage*

Come on Riot, give her just some kind of edge! A ranged champ like nida (if played well) is absolutely impossible to reach for shyvana. And that speedbuff... does it even make up for a pair of boots ?

EDIT:
Currently playing some more 3vs3. Though Shyvana feels better there then in 5vs5 its still hard to do much pre6 and without 1 or 2 big items.
Compared to the other champ I am playing in 3vs3: Garren... He is sooo easy to play and build. Just get boots, BC and you are fine already, everything beyond that is a bonus. No skillshot, every skill has tons of bonus effects...

please buff shyvana RIOT !!!!


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Please Forget

Junior Member

02-13-2013

+1 and bump in hopes of a red post.


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CoCIDLC

Junior Member

02-13-2013

Only game I've had with Shyvana:
31 kills
0 deaths
8 assists

None of my team had a single kill. The jungler was the carry.