Shyvana - the forgotten Champion ?

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copperpoint

Senior Member

02-03-2013

Dear Riot,
I highly value your efforts to rebalance S3, as the S3 patch threw some things around. I also like that you give comments on what you do and why, at least for me it makes understanding a lot easier..

She has no cc, no gap closer (besides her ulti), no sustain, no (good) poke or escape and is highly item dependant. You have to buy items to do what other champs simply get with her kit.
She can hardly punish enemy mistakes, as she gets stuck to minions A LOT.
Her laning can still be succesfull to say the least, but she lacks everything a laner usually has, you can play her top for fun, but in ranked she is a pretty big risk.
And in Gold or higher she has a playrate of 1% as every regular player there is somehow able to ward or kite her off.

And her playstile feels somewhat unrewarding. No matter how good you play, its downright impossible to catch and kill some champs unless they actually stop and fight you.
(Of course only if played well) Good Examples are Ziggs and Nidalee. Even if you somehow manage to get to them, you dont get anything for that effort, except a rather slow paced damage.
If you dont have Phage/Mallet or cutless then you must be really lucky to get a kill.


There are many ideas for possible changes on her.

Purpose: She plays somewhat like a jungle (or mediocre top lane) carry, as she gets better to the lategame. But she doesnt have anything to support those roles. With the last jungle patch, she kills the small creeps quickly, but she takes way too long to kill the big ones (Again, razor helps for that). With rather low health, delayed killing time (big creeps) and no escape, the risk of cj is currently way too high for her, if you want to do that, pick Udyr or Lee.
Some say that she is a great duelist, which is only partial true. Without a Cc item the outcome of most battles gets dictated by the enemy. If he has cc or escapes there is barely anything to force an engage on him+ her dmg is made to kill those who stay, which is rather slow.

Stats She has the some of the best starting stats in the game, but most of her dmg doesnt scale so well.
Only her Q has a good ratio. W is rather weak and E/R is AP based and therefore doesnt increase at all.

>>>>Fury: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...079796&page=33
A great job by Axhliay on a possible redesign of Shyvana, that actually gives fury a purpose for her playstile. Very nicely done and solves a lot of her problems without giving her a gapcloser or hard cc.
Worth a read. Its one of my favorite ideas.


Passive.
Lets say it could be better

Q- Twin bite- Maybe another speed effect between activation <> hit, that way she could still use her W for escapes and be a little faster overall. // It could have some other interaction with her E like: E+Q = 1sec stun or other effects. // Double dmg against monsters ?
Why exactly doesnt EVERY hit on Q trigger on hit effects ? Same for dragon form, hydra would be a great item on her, if it wasnt for this micro cooldown of the item. It would be a possible dmg spike, yes. But seriously its really rare to catch more then 2 enemys with your Q in dragon.

W- Burnout- The speedbonus isnt that high to begin with and isnt enough to chase. Usually used as a weak escape. Without hitting its only a 3sec duration that even drops off..
- Fades off over time - I guess its was some kind of design from ancient times, but currently I dont see one reason why it should fade off - Volibear, singed, poppy,Yi dont fade off either, why her ?
- Removes CC effects on activation. This was a big point, she has no cc and is highly vulnerable to such, why doesnt she have some form of protection? Escpecially if you take to mind that she is supposed to take a high risk by CJ. A scaling tenacity might be another idea, so that you are not forced to by merc treads in every game.
- If you want to buff her early dmg or punish more: Increasing dmg over time + ignite after 4 or 5 seconds. (Usually big minions, monsters or teamfight)
- Reduce Cooldown over Lv.. Like 8 sec when maxed?
- A partial scaling of AP or AD on her E was an idea too. She was released with AP scaling on her W.
- moving through targets ?
- longer base duration for more mobility?

E- Flame breath- Now this was a big one.

Thx to Murkin for trying this out: Shyvana is pretty much a champion with a redundant skill like this. You can play her without using the skill at all and it wont make too much of a difference. I think that tells us a lot about the skill itself. In the jungle the fireball is rather strange too you hit the big golem, shoot the fireball and it still hits one of the small creeps - Great!.

To a lot of people this hard to land skillshot feels highly unrewarding, even if it hits. The armor shred is her only team ability, but it makes no sense for herself, as most of her dmg is magical. The dmg is low and thanks to ap, it cant be (effectively) pushed. The armor shred is always the same 15% no matter which lv.
As long as you stay away from Shyvana, even a squishy doesnt have to dodge it, as the dmg is rather low.

Though I am not used to many champs, I currently cant think of a single one, that has a skillsot that does close to nothing and depends on something else to follow afterwards to be of real use.

Ideas:
-Make it hit through targets, like in her ulti.
Could be solved by a small aoe blast on hit too.
- scales of ad (complete or 50%)
- On hit effect was an idea too, though it worrys me how that would work in her dragon form.
- Other possible effects: Reduced armor+mgres, reduced healing (useful in lane), ignite when below X% health... some reason for an enemy to actually dodge it.
Gold when hit while debuffed ? Stun when hit with Q afterwards - would make it more scary and useful in teamfights without making her ganks stronger.

R- Dragon's Descent- Its her ONLY form of CC effect and her ulti on top if it- and it gets stopped by any kind of cc/stun, pushup or knockback, thats harsh.
B) Its the ONLY Ulti ingame whichs Cooldown is visible to the enemy team !

Currently we discuss if her armor/mgres bonnus is up to date. It makes her slightly more tanky, but nothing close to what she needed to not melt after a dive in 2 seconds.
Maybe a slight stun after initiate instead of that pushaway (usually pushing the enemy away hurts you more then it helps)?
Increased range - Like when chogath grows.
Dmg bonus ? Anti cc effects? Or a different tank ability, like reduced dmg by x%, maybe based on her LV (dragonage) to support more of a carry status.
Maybe changig her buffs back to what it once was, before nerf: 10/15/20 > 15/20/25

-------------------------------------------------
In general a lot of players seem to have problems with picking items on her too.
Its not that she has a small pool, its that she wastes a lot of stats and doesnt synergize as well as other champs.

The new BOTRK helps her a lot. It gives a simple slow and a massive dmg/sustain boost. Basically a mixed version of wriggles, wits and phage "light".
Definately the 1st big item to go for (this or mallet)
I think you have to use 2 skillsets for her, 21/9/0 if there is barely any cc and 9/21/0 if there are a lot of cc champs in the opp. team.
Same goes for items.

Offensive you can buy elder liz, while def the tank version (gives tenacity)
In most cases I would prefer wriggles or only razor into a CC item though.

Paaske pointed that out really well on p3, Thanks for that:
Currently it benefits her more to build CDR and Crit chance then ats, as those benefit more skills. Pushing AD is still the way to go, while dropping AP.
AP shyvana is good for fun games, but nothing more - she scales bad on AP and has too long CD.
Tank items become better the more you get, which has become less attractive due to the S3 item changes.
Buy dmg on her and you die fast, buy tank and you dont do any dmg.

EDIT:
ABOUT THE 3.9 changes:


Its a buff, yes, but its as small as it could be.
Her Passive is slightly more convinient as it grants AR/MR from the starts.
Her E hits through, so its a poke option now (although the dmg is very low and wont icrease unless you buy AP)
Her overall dmg on E has been decreased and the new 2% HP dmg only helps against tanks without MR or Monsters like Drake. Leveling E up befor Q doesnt do anything for her either. The initial dmg increases slightly from very low to just low.
Her Ulti: Still shows your enemy your CD and doesnt regen while dead. But it regenerates faster and uses up less, so you stay a little longer in dragon form.

RIOT totally failed to grasp the point of what everybody was writing about her.
But looking at the planned Olaf changes its obvious that Riot CAN do it. They just dont want to do it on Shyvana.

Olafs speed bonus wont decay anymore, he has true dmg, sustain, a great poke and gets her entire AR/MR bonus doubled all the time as a passive on his ulti. When active he removes CC and is imune for 5 seconds.
So Olaf gets 40 AR/MR permanently? While Shyvana has to turn into a dragon ?



Ok, that was a pretty big wall of text, but I hope you can see the thoughts the players put into it and maybe think about some buffs or reworks.

Add: Skin ideas ?
-Battle tech shyvana ? Prime chogath, nocturne..
- an undead/ ghost version ? A spectral green soul fire fire dragon. A green shape of the dragon and we just see some bones flying inside.
- A Lunar revel version ? Seriously an asia style shyvana would be great.
Thai Chi-vana

A personal concept of mine:
+ A 1st step of designs for a battlecast shyvana
+ A turnaround for battlecast shyvana - human form


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Wispilicus

Senior Member

02-03-2013

I used to play shyvana all the time in s2 as a jungler, and she was awesome. She is definitely lost a lot of her luster, no reason to pick her over any other jungler really. Now I play her top for lulz, (she can actually do really well against a lot of tops), but shes just not nearly as good as she used to be. I miss my shyvana.


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rumples

Senior Member

02-03-2013

fix my main damie


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FranPanginoon

Senior Member

02-03-2013

I have the most played games as Shyvana
(1500+)
And I've noticed she can't carry from the jungle as much as she used to be able to. part of it is due to the massive reworking of items.

Wardens mail and an early wriggles was the best way to build an unstopable Shyvana who could gank with full HP without issue. Now my runes and masteries are focused heavily and entirely on getting through that first clear without being a sitting duck.

Shyvana's Q needs to be a be able to double proc whatever a basic attack can do, even crits.

Her health does not scale as much as it should. I find im building much more armor than before and trying to desperately make up for the shift to HP and reistences as compared to before.
She needs a bit more armor to start off with for jungle clears, she comes out with such low health that she has to go back extremely early to pick up boots and recover her HP, it can put her behind.


I remember when Scarra noted shyvana was one of the top 4 junglers.
I miss being able to pull massive from the jungle carries like before.


About your suggestions.

Her E isnt as hard to land as you make it out to seem, its a good snipe skil and i use it alot, what its not good at is being very useful. She needs more base damage with that skill. especially because shyvana doesn't build any AP


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LouisLeGros

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Senior Member

02-03-2013

Skarner & Shyvana get together to talk about the glory days of season 2


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Axhliay

Senior Member

02-03-2013

A big one that was discussed there was her mix match scalings. Her main damage move scales on AD, while the rest of her kit is pretty much AP. So in order to get good damage you have to negate half of her kit. Which doesn't help her at all.

A look into that would also be helpful.


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FranPanginoon

Senior Member

02-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axhliay View Post
A big one that was discussed there was her mix match scalings. Her main damage move scales on AD, while the rest of her kit is pretty much AP. So in order to get good damage you have to negate half of her kit. Which doesn't help her at all.

A look into that would also be helpful.
She deals magic damage on her W and AD on her Q,, her W is powered by AD. this is very very adventagious for shyvana because it makes her much harder to counterbuild agaisnt.


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NotBuzzJack

Senior Member

02-03-2013

I know Xypherous has said he agrees Shyvana is currently in a weak state.


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N49

Senior Member

02-03-2013

Sad but true, Shyv is mostly irrelevant nowdays.

There's better people to send into the jungle, and WAY better people to send toplane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranPanginoon View Post
Her E isnt as hard to land as you make it out to seem, its a good snipe skil and i use it alot, what its not good at is being very useful. She needs more base damage with that skill. especially because shyvana doesn't build any AP
Or she could get better AP ratios(and gain one on W) to let her play like a hybrid, maybe even get some on hit action going on with a Malady.


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Venaccio

Member

02-03-2013

RIP Shyv I got her and Darkflame Shyv for free and I would love to use them T__________T