Moral position: Diana and Morgana

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Shaded Striker

Member

03-12-2014

Does anyone else think that it's a shame that they added the ending parts of the lore of these to champions solidifying their position as "Bad guys"? I feel that many could understand and even agree with the opinions of these two; How Morgana would not like a draconian and freedom less society and Diana only wanted to understand and be accepted for her strange attraction to the moon. Unfortunately they had to add the "Wants to kill her sister over and over and over" and the "Will kill anyone who doesn't agree with her" parts. Any thoughts?


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CrazE101

Senior Member

03-12-2014

I think that in the circumstances that befall them their ruthlessness to kill seems somewhat justified in their psyche.

Morgana's and Diana's lore are quite different, first off. Morgana seeks to kill Kayle solely for the fact of the disownership that Kayle decreed between them. For everything that their lore gives, Morgana's sole purpose in killing Kayle is just out of hatred and pain.

Diana's, on the other hand, has a few parts playing into her lore. Firstly, we all know that she just wanted to prove that the moon had power as well and wanted to share her connection to the moon with the rest of the Solari. When that was quickly brought down as heresy and she was sent to be put to death for it, Diana quickly jumped into the fight or flight stimulation our adrenaline gives us as she felt threatened. The sudden shock of the Solari going to such extremes would have rocketed her into this adrenal state, undoubtedly traumatized her and bending her to kill all of the Solari Council then and there in an act of self-defense.

This brings us to realize that once she had felled the Solari Council, she had to repress the shock of her own doing and find a way to justify her actions. So what did she do? She put two and two together: They did not accept the moon as a force, a powerful one at that, and they died for it due to their ignorance. Given the shock of these instances in the short time they happened, this process of thinking basically cemented themselves into her thoughts about the way of the moon.

The council died by the moon out of their ignorance to its power, therefore others who refuse its power will as well. It isn't so much a hostile saying as it is a warning to those who oppose the moon having any sort of force (the Solari).

Points:
1. Morgana just hates Kayle. It's probably the only way she can keep being called Kayle's sister, so it's the only path for Morgana to have some sort of connection with her sister despite their opposing views.

2. Diana killed the Solari in an act of adrenal fight-or-flight instinct. When the Solari decreed heresy and sent for her immediate execution, Diana jumped to save herself by slaying all who wished her dead.

3. This act sent her into a shocked state, by which she had to find a way to justify what she had done. In the end, she came up with "All those who oppose the moon's power will die." This phrase isn't to be hostile, it is to say that she now strongly defends the moon's power and finds it superior and, like what happened to the Solari, could possibly kill those who underestimate its power.

My ending thoughts are: Diana is indeed misunderstood. She's not bad, per say. Unfortunate circumstances and actions/reactions from both sides pushed both the Solari and Diana to extremes of the spectrum. Diana passionately defends a power that no one accepts, while Morgana seeks to prove something to her sister by killing her.


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Kumii

Senior Member

03-12-2014

Morgana also seeks to "free her people" from the tyrannical rule of Kayle. Or something along those lines. If Kayle dies, Morgana's faction will win. And vice versa.


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Trylobyte

Senior Member

03-12-2014

With Kayle and Morgana, I always see them as having an interesting set of opposing principles. Kayle is a good, caring, but extremely lawful person whose honor requires her to defend an outdated and arguably immoral system, while Morgana rebelled against it, but that same chaotic free spirit and willingness to take chances led her down the path to complete immorality, sadism, and cruelty when she couldn't overcome her sister. In short, Kayle is a good person upholding bad principles because she feels she has to and Morgana is a bad person supporting good principles who sacrificed her better nature to get the change she felt she couldn't get any other way.

I don't know a great deal about Leona and Diana's lore so I can't comment there, but it's entirely possible that when she was immediately sentenced to death for heresy she decided that nobody was going to accept her, everyone was out to get her, and the only solution was to kill everyone who disagreed with her before they could do the same to her. Something that was arguably true so far as Mt. Targon and the Solari were concerned.


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SecretLore

Senior Member

03-13-2014

I think in dianas lore it is pretty likely that the moon powers are actually influencing dianas mind.

the solari council was very eager to prevent anyone from digging up anything about the moon.The question however would be why would they do that?
they didn't want to kill her immediatly,they punished her hoping she would stop searching for more information,giving her a new chance to stop it,so i wouldn't say they are completely amoral.

So what if the moon powers are actually driving her crazy,turning her into a fanatic who wants to kill everyone who is against the moon?What if all the lunari were like that?
That would explain why the council was so eager to prevent diana from getting more and more information about the lunari,they knew that she would go ax-crazy and they wanted to prevent that.


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Kumii

Senior Member

03-13-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretLore View Post
I think in dianas lore it is pretty likely that the moon powers are actually influencing dianas mind.

the solari council was very eager to prevent anyone from digging up anything about the moon.The question however would be why would they do that?
they didn't want to kill her immediatly,they punished her hoping she would stop searching for more information,giving her a new chance to stop it,so i wouldn't say they are completely amoral.

So what if the moon powers are actually driving her crazy,turning her into a fanatic who wants to kill everyone who is against the moon?What if all the lunari were like that?
That would explain why the council was so eager to prevent diana from getting more and more information about the lunari,they knew that she would go ax-crazy and they wanted to prevent that.
That's not very likely though. Diana was more or less driven to the way she is now. That symbol on her head? Yea, the elders branded that into her forehead like how you would do to cattle. Such humiliation, pain, and grief starts condensing and explodes to something crazy.


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Argent Heretic

Senior Member

03-13-2014

I posted this before in another thread. I have kind of looked into this stuff a bit.

Diana is a fanatic, she will do whatever it takes to achieve her goals. She is a little mentally unstable I will agree with that. But who isn't in some way, shape or form. In fact i think almost all champs have some sort of mental, emotional or physical issue.

But, I don't think she is evil. Take Varus for example. He lost everything, the noxians destroyed everything he loved and cared for. All he lives for now is revenge and he will also stop at nothing to make sure he obtains it.

In a way I see Diana in the same light. The Solari hated her, she was their doormat. She researched and studied to find out if their was a clan that worshiped the moon. Her curiosity and questions got her into a lot of trouble. Diana was beaten and punished severely for any heretical quip or notion.

As you know Diana found a Lunari temple and within it, the artifacts she now carries and went to tell the Solari elders what she had discovered. The Solari has decided that she has been a thorn in their side for too long so they branded her with the mark of the heretic. Which as you know Is the Lunari symbol of the moon. She was branded by the sun by being forced to layout under its intense gaze while it slowly marred her skin. Her tears boiled as they pooled around her eyes creating scars. They were going to execute her because she believed in something else. She had every right to protect herself and slay those that were trying to kill her. For example it's almost like a kid getting bullied constantly. Of course the victim would rather be friends with them instead of enemies. But, eventually the antagonist will push the victim too far, they will forgo trying to gain acceptance and they will retaliate because it becomes to much to bear.

All she wanted was to be treated as a person and her beliefs to be accepted. The Solari would do neither. The Solari committed an act of Genocide wiping out the Lunari completely. Diana views the Solari as evil and that they must be brought to justice, their punishment will be the crime they commited. Which is extermination of the Solari and killing all in it that reject the moon. She wants revenge. Do two wrongs make a right? No. Is her way of getting justice morally right? No. But in her eyes the Punishment fits the crime and they deserve to die for it. Its fitting towards hammurabi's code. She is misunderstood and seen as evil because no one is willing to see it all from her point of view. They don't know what she had to endure and what she had to experience.

As for her attitude. I can't blame her for being the way she is now. She was treated badly all her life and she expects everyone to treat her badly like they did before. She is cold, bitter, angry and most of all sad and afraid. She is afraid of getting hurt again, because the last time she sought acceptance she was denied of it for being different.

Will she ever get rid of her cold hard exterior and reveal her true self where she may be a good person under it all? Maybe, but someone has to show her that not everyone is out there to bring her pain and misery.


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SecretLore

Senior Member

03-13-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kumii View Post
That's not very likely though. Diana was more or less driven to the way she is now. That symbol on her head? Yea, the elders branded that into her forehead like how you would do to cattle. Such humiliation, pain, and grief starts condensing and explodes to something crazy.
dianas crest being a brand mark isn't canon,Ironstylus himself said,he'd like it if she got it this way,but that he isn't sure if this will be ever canon.
Also she went from "trying to be aknowledged" to "kill all non-lunari" rather fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argent Heretic View Post
Diana is a fanatic, she will do whatever it takes to achieve her goals. She is a little mentally unstable I will agree with that. But who isn't in some way, shape or form. In fact i think almost all champs have some sort of mental, emotional or physical issue.

But, I don't think she is evil. Take Varus for example. He lost everything, the noxians destroyed everything he loved and cared for. All he lives for now is revenge and he will also stop at nothing to make sure he obtains it.

In a way I see Diana in the same light. The Solari hated her, she was their doormat. She researched and studied to find out if their was a clan that worshiped the moon. Her curiosity and questions got her into a lot of trouble. Diana was beaten and punished severely for any heretical quip or notion.

As you know Diana found a Lunari temple and within it, the artifacts she now carries and went to tell the Solari elders what she had discovered. The Solari has decided that she has been a thorn in their side for too long so they branded her with the mark of the heretic. Which as you know Is the Lunari symbol of the moon. She was branded by the sun by being forced to layout under its intense gaze while it slowly marred her skin. Her tears boiled as they pooled around her eyes creating scars. They were going to execute her because she believed in something else. She had every right to protect herself and slay those that were trying to kill her. For example it's almost like a kid getting bullied constantly. Of course the victim would rather be friends with them instead of enemies. But, eventually the antagonist will push the victim too far, they will forgo trying to gain acceptance and they will retaliate because it becomes to much to bear.

All she wanted was to be treated as a person and her beliefs to be accepted. The Solari would do neither. The Solari committed an act of Genocide wiping out the Lunari completely. Diana views the Solari as evil and that they must be brought to justice, their punishment will be the crime they commited. Which is extermination of the Solari and killing all in it that reject the moon. She wants revenge. Do two wrongs make a right? No. Is her way of getting justice morally right? No. But in her eyes the Punishment fits the crime and they deserve to die for it. Its fitting towards hammurabi's code. She is misunderstood and seen as evil because no one is willing to see it all from her point of view. They don't know what she had to endure and what she had to experience.

As for her attitude. I can't blame her for being the way she is now. She was treated badly all her life and she expects everyone to treat her badly like they did before. She is cold, bitter, angry and most of all sad and afraid. She is afraid of getting hurt again, because the last time she sought acceptance she was denied of it for being different.

Will she ever get rid of her cold hard exterior and reveal her true self where she may be a good person under it all? Maybe, but someone has to show her that not everyone is out there to bring her pain and misery.
you are forgetting one thing:
She not only wants to kill all the solari(despite only the elders trying to kill her,the others had no problem with her),but she wants to elimante everyone who doesn't want to join the lunari,that would include even non-solari-members


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Argent Heretic

Senior Member

03-13-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretLore View Post
dianas crest being a brand mark isn't canon,Ironstylus himself said,he'd like it if she got it this way,but that he isn't sure if this will be ever canon.
Also she went from "trying to be aknowledged" to "kill all non-lunari" rather fast



you are forgetting one thing:
She not only wants to kill all the solari(despite only the elders trying to kill her,the others had no problem with her),but she wants to elimante everyone who doesn't want to join the lunari,that would include even non-solari-members

What are you trying to achieve here?

1.I thought anything Iron Stylus says is instant canon? You said it yourself before that if a rioter says something its canon. This has been reiterated several times before: Unless a rioter expressly addresses something as canon (Like Runaan used to do in creative AMAs), any opinion they voice, is ENTIRELY their opinion.




2.If you look at her lore it says her (enemies.) She gives her enemies a final ultimatum revere the moons light or die by her crescent blade. Which means not everyone is an enemy. If everyone is her enemy that means she has a death wish. I don't think she wants to die because she has goals to accomplish. She would be throwing away her life. Not to mention what is she going to do? Go into Noxian, Demacian etc. territory start threatening people to join or die? Yeah, that will work out real well especially since other champions reside in those cities. I'm pretty sure they wont just let her go. They will kill her regardless of political ramifications considering she is no longer affiliated with any territory. Any city state could get away with it quite easily and no one would give a damn about her death. These city states have a right to protect their people and their land. Even fanatics are smart enough to not make an enemy of everyone. To do so other wise would instantly label you as completely and utterly retarded.

I don't know where you found this "everyone is an enemy" garbage. Regardless if its sourced or not, its completely illogical it makes absolutely no sense in the slightest. Either A the writer is stupid or B someone is cherry picking information and misinterpreting things.


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SecretLore

Senior Member

03-14-2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argent Heretic View Post
What are you trying to achieve here?

1.I thought anything Iron Stylus says is instant canon? You said it yourself before that if a rioter says something its canon. This has been reiterated several times before: Unless a rioter expressly addresses something as canon (Like Runaan used to do in creative AMAs), any opinion they voice, is ENTIRELY their opinion.




2.If you look at her lore it says her (enemies.) She gives her enemies a final ultimatum revere the moons light or die by her crescent blade. Which means not everyone is an enemy. If everyone is her enemy that means she has a death wish. I don't think she wants to die because she has goals to accomplish. She would be throwing away her life. Not to mention what is she going to do? Go into Noxian, Demacian etc. territory start threatening people to join or die? Yeah, that will work out real well especially since other champions reside in those cities. I'm pretty sure they wont just let her go. They will kill her regardless of political ramifications considering she is no longer affiliated with any territory. Any city state could get away with it quite easily and no one would give a damn about her death. These city states have a right to protect their people and their land. Even fanatics are smart enough to not make an enemy of everyone. To do so other wise would instantly label you as completely and utterly retarded.

I don't know where you found this "everyone is an enemy" garbage. Regardless if its sourced or not, its completely illogical it makes absolutely no sense in the slightest. Either A the writer is stupid or B someone is cherry picking information and misinterpreting things.
1.The difference here is that ironstylus himself said that for now it is not sure if this will be made canon.He said he would like it if the mark on her head was a brand mark and that the diana team also discussed this,but he had no idea if this will be integrated into her story

Quote:
So, the super-secret head-canon I have, which I have no idea if it'll be actually integrated, but it's something that Team Diana talked about way back in the day.. is that her mark is a physical brand.
2.Look at her lore,in the end it says that she is "resolved to destroy all those who would deny the power of the moon"
It doesn't just say she wants to destroy the solari,but those who don't believe in the power of the moon in general.
Also of course she won't run into other city states and start to slaughter everyone,that would be simply stupid and suicide,dunno how you got the idea that i meant that.
Diana is smart enough to be careful,otherwise she would have already tried to kill leona outside the league resulting in the death of one of them.


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