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Why nerfing Master Yi is a baseless knee-jerk by Riot, wall of text version

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SplitterX

Senior Member

02-02-2013

i'm enjoying my jungle yi tyvm


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xStrangler

Junior Member

02-02-2013

All of you that disagree with the Master Yi post cool you guys know what's up. All of you who agree know that no one plays master yi in a ranked game, in fact when you pick a master yi you have a 78% chance that someone will leave because he either can't do much late game because vs a teemo or someone else who can stun or blind him can easily kill him in around 3 seconds because yi doesn't stack health or armor just rapid damage and attack speed so he can kill and get away before he gets killed. On top of that if you play AP yi he has no real impact in team fights except for that little burst from alpha strike after that if he tries to stay in the battle he will become easy prey for someone like Rengar or Kha'Zix that can kill him before he knows can even press W. Like I said before RIOT HAS TO BE NERFING PEOPLE LIKE DARIUS ESPECIALLY DARIUS BECAUSE HE IS TOO OP STOP MESSING AROUND WITH STUPID CHAMPIONS THAT DON'T MATTER WHEN YOU PLAY RANKED. RIOT YOU HAVE SO MANY OP PLAYERS WE CAN'T EVEN BAN ALL OF THEM BECAUSE OF HOW MANY THERE ARE. I ALWAYS HAVE FIGHTS WITH PEOPLE ON WHO TO BAN. DO YOU GUYS REALLY WANT THIS TO BECOME A GROWING PROBLEM. THIS OLAF NERF BETTER JUST BE THE BEGINNING OF THE MASS NERFING OF THE OP CHAMPIONS.


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Tadiken

Senior Member

02-02-2013

Quote:
Armageddon2099:
Actually, Mundo gets 100 flat AD by turning on his max level E. He can get potentially 199 if he's lost 99% of his life.

good to know. However, yi has two more steroids(technically) warranting him being ad. Mundo has something that ridiculous because that is the only bonus to attacks he gets. It is the same reason yi had that scaling on his w, because he wasn't meant to be played ap. It is the same reason as they do that with tristanas spells. It was there to make getting guinsoos and trinity force viable, as it also gave large bonuses to their spells.


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Randomocity132

Senior Member

02-02-2013

Quote:
port5:
good to know. However, yi has two more steroids(technically) warranting him being ad. Mundo has something that ridiculous because that is the only bonus to attacks he gets. It is the same reason yi had that scaling on his w, because he wasn't meant to be played ap. It is the same reason as they do that with tristanas spells. It was there to make getting guinsoos and trinity force viable, as it also gave large bonuses to their spells.


Actually it was there because champions used to have multiple ways to be played before there was such a thing as "scaling with AD", see also AP Tryndamere


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Knight Escorien

Senior Member

02-02-2013

Quote:
Randomocity132:
These are your champions without any method of breaking a channeled ability. 37 champions out of 110. In other words, 66% of all champions have at least 1 ability to break Yi’s Meditate early. Picking none of them is absolutely stupid. Your team comp should have a balance of crowd controls, damage types, and tankiness so you’re not shut down by a single champion. It’s not even as if you need to have 1 per each champion. A single Alistar, Cho’gath, Blitzcrank, Riven, Fiddlesticks, Leona, Nami, Nautilus, or Xin Zhao, will provide multiple, reliable crowd controls for your team fighting ability. If you can’t save at least 1 ability to interrupt Yi’s meditate, you have poor planning or a poor teamcomp, and he’s going to heal to full. Whoop-de-doo. Kill someone else in the meantime. It’s not as if he’s aced your team by doing this. You planned this poorly, and the only negative consequence is that one character takes longer to kill.

There's 4 other people who potentially need CC. Yi commonly meditates after his Alpha Strike is on CD- which makes him untargetable. By the time he's meditating the damage is already done.

“But what if he gets a kill?” Well, number 1, if you buy any kind of health or magic resist, that won’t be a problem. Yi becomes worthless if he can’t score a kill on his first Alpha Strike, so he’ll either have to be sitting the teamfight out for the first half, or he’ll have to be against Team Glass Cannon. Buy a Banshee’s Veil or Spirit Visage if you’re not going to buy anything else defensive. Yi’s ult was the original Darius’s ult, but it’s a hell of a lot harder to reset. The ult doesn’t DO any damage. It also doesn’t help you kill people if you’re AP. It just allows you to cast your spell again, IF YOU CAN RESET IT. It doesn’t deal true damage, it doesn’t empower his Q, and he’s got to gamble using it before he Q’s, because he has to land a kill if he uses it, but if he gets a kill and was saving his ult, he’s got to wait to try again. Darius can GUARANTEE that his will kill people and reset, and he’s got the rest of his kit to deal damage with (and yet people seem to think he’s less deserving of a nerf than Yi, but I digress). If you can prevent HIM from getting that kill, either through tankiness, spell-blocking, MR, or baiting his ult, there goes his teamfight potential. But that’s just teamfighting. Most of the complaints are about the laning phase.

Buying defensive stats is a poor argument because half the time they don't make enough of a difference. Buying defensive items on an ADC completely gimps their early damage, and requires all 5 members to do so; otherwise he kills one and resets for the rest. In addition, 'just buy defensive items' has never held up as good logic for an OP hero doing too much damage; they get nerfed anyway. There is no individual counterplay to Alpha Strike- your entire team has work against it, and even in competitive games that's asking a bit much.


I've played as AP Yi, and I've played against AP Yi plenty of times. What common mids will always have a CC for Yi when he goes to meditate during the laning phase? Cho’gath has 2. Ahri has a ranged Charm. Kassadin has a ranges silence. Malzahar has 2, one of which instantly kills him. Ziggs has a ranged Satchel. Viktor’s got a ranged slow that will stun him after a few moments of meditating. Twisted Fate can pull a gold card. Talon has a gap-closing silence. Syndra’s got a ranged knockback. Kennen has tons of ranged abilities to stun with. Brand has his stun combo, which is easy to hit against a stationary target. Annie has a stun up most of the time. Anivia has her iceball. Elise has a ranged stun. Le Blanc should have no trouble landing a silencing combo. Xerath has a long ranged stun combo. If you’re any of these champions, you should have no difficulty keeping him from meditating, or keeping him zoned behind his turret because he’ll have to push his wave when he Alpha Strikes. Plus, there are several other mids that have ults that knockback/up.

Cho I'll give, Ahri can't land half her spells without landing a Charm for setup, Kassadin I'll give, Malzahar only has his laning, Ziggs has to waste his satchel- his escape tool, Viktor has a ton of other issues including mana problems, TF I'll give, Talon should be using his E to combo him otherwise Yi will be untouchable anyway, Brand has to clear the minions for a clear shot if Yi's smart by which most of the duration of Meditate has passed, Annie has no range lategame in which Yi reaches critical mass, Anivia I'll give but Yi will run her out of mana faster than he does, Elise has the same problem as Brand, LeBlanc I'll give (But if the game goes past 30 minutes she loses), and Xerath. As for the mids with ults, that's their ult versus a long CD normal ability. 5 out of your 13 cases are reasonable, but only Cho, TF, and Anivia (IF you can even play her) are good against a large variety of comps. Kass and LeBlanc are fairly niche picks.

And if you happen to be a mid without a silence, stun, taunt, or knockback/up, don’t despair. Master Yi’s cooldown on his Meditate is 35 seconds at all ranks. That is a LONG time to ult and kill him the next time he comes in, because he’ll have no defenses other than ulting to runaway, which won’t be a problem for those with bindings or gap-closers that have been waiting patiently because they can’t interrupt Meditate outright. If you fail all of that, you’ve got another chance to grab kills on Yi easily by having a jungler with a decent CC and jumping onto him when he goes to Alpha Strike. There is so much counterplay capability, it’s really shameful to say that “We’re going to nerf this champion because people have forgotten how easy it is to interrupt channels,” or that “People find it annoying to fight a champion that can heal himself to full every 35 seconds, and don’t capitalize during that long of a down-time.”

And every 35 seconds, all of the work and resources you spent to harrass him are wasted. If you decide to just farm, Yi wins the lane more or less by default. Bringing in your jungler is NOT real counterplay either- there is little that most mid laners can do to disrupt the safety of Yi's laning phase without outside assistance.

The last time Yi’s Meditate was changed was to remove the start-up time before channeling, back at Vi’s release. The last time anything mechanic-wise changed about his ability was back when AKALI was released, in May of 2010, when they added his Armor and MR bonus, decreased the cooldown by 10 seconds at all ranks, and decreased the base heal at each rank (400 at max rank). Nothing has changed about Yi for almost 3 years, and suddenly he’s 50% stronger than he needs to be when he heals. Really? Just because Katarina FOTM can’t kill Yi as easily as everyone else, he’s suddenly too hard to lane against? Katarina is countered just as hard by anyone who can break channels. Kat players should know to pick someone else against Yi in draft, or to ask for top to swap with her. And if that’s not a possibility, oh well. You got counter-picked. It happens. Fiora beats the hell out of Master Yi when he’s AD, but you don’t see Fiora in toplane any more because of the monster that is Darius who counters everything melee (and can also interrupt Yi’s Meditate). Changes to the meta don’t suddenly make a champion OP. Yi’s been using the same items when going AP for the last 2+ years. This is a knee-jerk nerf by Riot, and frankly, I’m incredibly ashamed of them.

Changing the meta DOES make champions OP. If everything else gets weaker, he is stronger by comparison. If you don't realize how big of a buff removing or reducing cast times on spells are, I question your credibility.

tl;dr because this is very long: Fiora outclasses AD Yi, so AP is the most viable way to play Yi. Scenarios in patch previews are staged bullsh*t. 66% of all champions can interrupt his Meditate, so pick at least 1 and save it if you’re not brain-dead. If you read this tl;dr and you agree, great, lemme know what you think. If you read this tl;dr and disagree, post what you think as well, and consider the actual post my rebuttal to you. Read that next

True on Fiora vs. Yi, the patch preview video has always essentially been background graphics, and the last part was addressed above.


Comments of mine are in bold.


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Foxley

Senior Member

02-02-2013

Being able to interrupt AP Yi wasn't the issue. It's that he'd run underneath a turret, heal to full, and continue to farm/poke. Infinitely. Even more annoying to play against than Yorick, which is saying a lot.


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Gaeta

Senior Member

02-02-2013

These guys' full-time job is to think about what is necessary and figure out the best way to go about it. They spend at least 40 hours a week, but probably more like 70, to nail down the changes that go live instead of dying in testing.

But yeah, you're probably right, I bet it's just some knee-jerk reaction.


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Fuzen kuden

Senior Member

02-02-2013

wall of text and ap yi player is hideing behind it downvote and move on


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BACKSTABUUU

Recruiter

02-02-2013

Knee jerk? AP Yi has existed for YEARS, and even if it wasn't always viable, it WAS always annoying. Honestly surprised it didn't get nerfed sooner, considering how much Morello hates sustained healing.


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Randomocity132

Senior Member

02-02-2013

Quote:
Judge Escorien:
If you don't realize how big of a buff removing or reducing cast times on spells are, I question your credibility.


.........what? They removed the wind-up time on Meditate. This is a nice change, but hardly significant. The ability remained the same. The last time the ratio was changed was a long time ago, which is what I was pointing out.