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Why nerfing Master Yi is a baseless knee-jerk by Riot, wall of text version

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XanemicDoof

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Craixis:
Great, let's look at Nunu's ultimate ratio here.

2.5 for the full channel.
When do you ever get the full Channel?

Alright fine, fine, what does Master Yi's heal do outside of heal?
... 300 MR and Armor...
Wait, what?

Nunu's Ultimate also has a 50% movespeed slow + 25% attackspeed slow while channeling which is pretty nifty.
Quote:
Craixis:

Fiddlesticks, Drain:
Damage over full Duration = 900 + 2.25 AP
Heals for 80% of that, which means heal is a whole 1.75 lower than AP Yi's current Ratio, requires a target, and doesn't give nearly as strong as defensive steroid. Also has moderate cooldown and small base cast range (though Leash is stupidly long). Note, I'm even highballing the heal Ratio here, as it's 80% of the ratio... meaning it's actually 1.8.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Fiddlesticks (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/redirect.php?do=verify&redirect_url=http%3A%2F%2Fleagueoflegends.wikia.com%2Fwiki%2FFiddlesticks)

Your move, GD.


... Thank you for elaborating for me? So it's still a potential 2.25 damage ratio with 1.8 Heal (4.05 combined).


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msgerbs

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
IS110d4629f755bc:
Nunu's Ultimate also has a 50% movespeed slow + 25% attackspeed slow while channeling which is pretty nifty.


... Thank you for elaborating for me? So it's still a potential 2.25 damage ratio with 1.8 Heal (4.05 combined).

Except Nunu and Fiddlesticks both require being near enemies to do anything with those ratios. They have to sit there non-moving in front of you. Master yi? He can go wherever the heck he wants. And even AP yi can do some pretty serious damage with his auto attacks while he's on cd, so if you go run past his creeps to interupt him you'd better be ready to get bent. Plus, that's nunu's ULTIMATE.


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XanemicDoof

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
msgerbs:
Except Nunu and Fiddlesticks both require being near enemies to do anything with those ratios. They have to sit there non-moving in front of you. Master yi? He can go wherever the heck he wants. And even AP yi can do some pretty serious damage with his auto attacks while he's on cd, so if you go run past his creeps to interupt him you'd better be ready to get bent. Plus, that's nunu's ULTIMATE.

Uh-huh, I was just pointing out drain to the 'a 4.0 ration on an ability is ALWAYS ABSURD' guy.


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msgerbs

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
IS110d4629f755bc:
Uh-huh, I was just pointing out drain to the 'a 4.0 ration on an ability is ALWAYS ABSURD' guy.

To be fair, it's not a single 4.0 ratio, it's 2 different ratios that add to 4. If Drain had a 4.0 ratio on heal it would be ridiculous.


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Craixis

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
IS110d4629f755bc:
Nunu's Ultimate also has a 50% movespeed slow + 25% attackspeed slow while channeling which is pretty nifty.


... Thank you for elaborating for me? So it's still a potential 2.25 damage ratio with 1.8 Heal (4.05 combined).


Difference is, you're not being healed by 4 AP, you're only being healed by 1.8.
You're also not recieving 300 Armor and MR, which is also a hilariously high stat increase (which would negate most of Nunu's damage, if we want to compare in combat utility), while also having the weakness of Yi's channel, where a stun ruins his day.
And the major difference is, one aspect is dealing damage, the other is healing you. It's not just a flat "Alright, all that harass you did to me, getting me down to 10% HP... yeah that's gone now, and you can't do anything to stop it", Fiddles isn't healing a massive amount with Drain, which is the portion we're arguing. He doesn't have a 4 AP ratio on the heal, and the major difference is positioning; Fiddles will either have to remove himself from lane and go into the jungle, or go back into lane and try to drain a minion to heal. In teamfights, he has to target an enemy champion at a very close range, and gains little defensive stats for it (you rarely are using Drain as a way to shrug damage, you do it to kill people).

I mean, overall, what's the heal on Drain? 80% of 900, so 720, right? Alright, at 250 AP, that means you're healing 1170 HP over the full duration (which is less likely to happen than Yi, who will be healing, over the full duration, 700 HP more).
But that damage makes up for it, right? I mean, what's the cast range on Drain, it's not like in order to get the full duration you need to be base to base with the enemy (I mean, it's not like it's only 475 or anything, right?... wait a minute)
4 AP ratio, on an ability that doesn't require a target, is a bit absurd, especially when there's no drawback to using it in most situations.
I mean, you want to argue more about healers? Talk to Taric or Soraka, who have healing designed into their kit. They've been nerfed repeatibly, yet they still function amazingly well (healing abilities have NO DRAWBACK whatsoever, where as drains and devours put you in a position to get killed, they have risk verses reward). Yi will still be able to tank damage with Meditate (300 Armor and MR, if you argue "I can't tank anymore" then you're doing it wrong). The skill should reward good play, which currently it doesn't; it's very much a get out of jail free card if you screw up in lane or in a teamfight, as you're only out of a teamfight for 5 seconds.

We're also not talking about the fact that Master Yi's heal refreshes on kills, and loses half it's cooldown on assist, on a kit designed to do AoE damage as AP...
And currently, this nerf is about the same as igniting Yi during meditate, which isn't a hard counter to the massive amount of healing that happens (900 HP is still a thing).

Quote:
Randomocity132:

One last thing, if we're talking about Yi healing for 3000, then he has 2300 coming from scaling and 700 from the base (Pre-nerf). That's roughly 570 AP.
Right, let's see.
(Active): Gangplank consumes a large quantity of citrus fruit, which removes all crowd control effects on him and heals him.
Cost: 65 mana
Cooldown: 22 / 21 / 20 / 19 / 18 seconds
Heal: 80 / 150 / 220 / 290 / 360 (+1.0 per ability power)
With 570 AP, that brings his heal up to 360+570=930. So that's wrong.

Alright, with 570 AP on Mageplank, you only have one reliable offensive nuke (Parrrley), and the RNG to fight with on your ultimate. As a big fan of him, back in the day, when his ultimate fit the entire lane, it worked well. However, I didn't build straight damage on him (he needed CDR and beef so he could abuse his heal, as he didn't have a gap closer). Oh, and 570 AP is a very late game build, assuming you get there; Mageplank has a weaker laning phase than his counterpart Tankidps Plank (as crits are a thing).
Quote:


(Active): Soraka fills her allies with hope, instantly restoring health to all allied champions regardless of where they are.
Cost: 100 / 175 / 250 mana
Cooldown: 160 / 145 / 130 seconds
Heal: 200 / 320 / 440 (+0.7 per ability power)
With 570 AP, that bring the heal on her ult up to 399+440=839 (x5 because it's teamwide), not including her other heal, so that's wrong.


So, you're arguing an ultimate, again with a very late game build, on a champion who will most likely not have the gold to reach that statline, as she'll also have support items like Reverie...

Quote:


(Active): Taric channels earthen energy to heal his target ally. As the magic flows through them he is healed for the same amount. If Taric heals only himself, the heal will be 40% more effective. His autoattacks on champions decrease this spell's cooldown by 3 seconds each or by 1 second if hitting non-champions.
Range: 750
Cost: 80 / 95 / 110 / 125 / 140 mana
Cooldown: 20 / 19 / 18 / 17 / 16 seconds
Heal: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+0.6 per ability power)
Self Heal: 84 / 140 / 196 / 252 / 308 (+0.84 per ability power)
With 570 AP, that brings his self heal to 478+308=786, so that's wrong.

Man, you are NOT good at this.


Again, a guy who will most likely NOT be building AP, you're arguing for... a very late game build, on a character who will not be farming. What about Yi's heal at 570 AP?

4*570, 2280, divide by 10 for 10 ticks, 228 HP from just the AP, on three ticks you out heal all three of those champions...
Oh, wait, he also heals upon activating and ending the channel... Let's add the other 246 HP, and the 183 HP to that. 657, for 1 tick, along with 300 Armor and MR. And likely you'll get at least 2 more ticks out of it, so you're easily healing about 1000 HP in 1.5 seconds. On a champion who does work well as AP, AND is likely to farm the items to get the build to work.

Man, you are not good at this...


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Randomocity132

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Craixis:
Difference is, you're not being healed by 4 AP, you're only being healed by 1.8.
You're also not recieving 300 Armor and MR, which is also a hilariously high stat increase (which would negate most of Nunu's damage, if we want to compare in combat utility), while also having the weakness of Yi's channel, where a stun ruins his day.
And the major difference is, one aspect is dealing damage, the other is healing you. It's not just a flat "Alright, all that harass you did to me, getting me down to 10% HP... yeah that's gone now, and you can't do anything to stop it", Fiddles isn't healing a massive amount with Drain, which is the portion we're arguing. He doesn't have a 4 AP ratio on the heal, and the major difference is positioning; Fiddles will either have to remove himself from lane and go into the jungle, or go back into lane and try to drain a minion to heal. In teamfights, he has to target an enemy champion at a very close range, and gains little defensive stats for it (you rarely are using Drain as a way to shrug damage, you do it to kill people).

I mean, overall, what's the heal on Drain? 80% of 900, so 720, right? Alright, at 250 AP, that means you're healing 1170 HP over the full duration (which is less likely to happen than Yi, who will be healing, over the full duration, 700 HP more).
But that damage makes up for it, right? I mean, what's the cast range on Drain, it's not like in order to get the full duration you need to be base to base with the enemy (I mean, it's not like it's only 475 or anything, right?... wait a minute)
4 AP ratio, on an ability that doesn't require a target, is a bit absurd, especially when there's no drawback to using it in most situations.
I mean, you want to argue more about healers? Talk to Taric or Soraka, who have healing designed into their kit. They've been nerfed repeatibly, yet they still function amazingly well (healing abilities have NO DRAWBACK whatsoever, where as drains and devours put you in a position to get killed, they have risk verses reward). Yi will still be able to tank damage with Meditate (300 Armor and MR, if you argue "I can't tank anymore" then you're doing it wrong). The skill should reward good play, which currently it doesn't; it's very much a get out of jail free card if you screw up in lane or in a teamfight, as you're only out of a teamfight for 5 seconds.

We're also not talking about the fact that Master Yi's heal refreshes on kills, and loses half it's cooldown on assist, on a kit designed to do AoE damage as AP...
And currently, this nerf is about the same as igniting Yi during meditate, which isn't a hard counter to the massive amount of healing that happens (900 HP is still a thing).


Alright, with 570 AP on Mageplank, you only have one reliable offensive nuke (Parrrley), and the RNG to fight with on your ultimate. As a big fan of him, back in the day, when his ultimate fit the entire lane, it worked well. However, I didn't build straight damage on him (he needed CDR and beef so he could abuse his heal, as he didn't have a gap closer). Oh, and 570 AP is a very late game build, assuming you get there; Mageplank has a weaker laning phase than his counterpart Tankidps Plank (as crits are a thing).


So, you're arguing an ultimate, again with a very late game build, on a champion who will most likely not have the gold to reach that statline, as she'll also have support items like Reverie...



Again, a guy who will most likely NOT be building AP, you're arguing for... a very late game build, on a character who will not be farming. What about Yi's heal at 570 AP?

4*570, 2280, divide by 10 for 10 ticks, 228 HP from just the AP, on three ticks you out heal all three of those champions...
Oh, wait, he also heals upon activating and ending the channel... Let's add the other 246 HP, and the 183 HP to that. 657, for 1 tick, along with 300 Armor and MR. And likely you'll get at least 2 more ticks out of it, so you're easily healing about 1000 HP in 1.5 seconds. On a champion who does work well as AP, AND is likely to farm the items to get the build to work.

Man, you are not good at this...



Good try, but this isn't a question of "does this happen?"

It's you saying "Nobody else can heal this hard with this much AP" which is just false.
Still false.

Same arguments against Yi. "Shouldn't be built AP"
Well he can be. And they can be. Regardless of whether it's good or viable or whatever. They heal harder than Yi per second. That's the entire purpose of the post. Don't try to backtrack now.

Quote:
Anidan:
Their heals may be instant, but none of them pump out 600 hp a second

Get proved wrong, try to change your argument, use someone else's insult.

Quote:
Craixis:

4*570, 2280, divide by 10 for 10 ticks, 228 HP from just the AP, on three ticks you out heal all three of those champions...
Oh, wait, he also heals upon activating and ending the channel... Let's add the other 246 HP, and the 183 HP to that. 657, for 1 tick, along with 300 Armor and MR. And likely you'll get at least 2 more ticks out of it, so you're easily healing about 1000 HP in 1.5 seconds.

You can talk about ticks and **** all day if you want, but you don't heal 1000 HP in 1.5 seconds, considering it's a 5 second channel that heals for 3000.
1.5 is not 1/3 of 5.


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XanemicDoof

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Jesus Christ; If you're going to quote a wall of text at least snip it down a bit.


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Randomocity132

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
IS110d4629f755bc:
Jesus Christ; If you're going to quote a wall of text at least snip it down a bit.

What, mine?


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Randomocity132

Senior Member

02-05-2013

bump


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Randomocity132

Senior Member

02-05-2013

bump