League system queue dodge penalties

First Riot Post
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Kaolla

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yegg View Post
Queue dodging is sometimes a valid defense mechanism against toxic situations, and we didn't want to punish people too harshly for using it
up until NOW riot has never endorsed dodging for ANY reason other than "an emergency has come up and i cannot play this game i queued for"

now you've come out and said that people SHOULD be dodging trolls

are you SURE you want to open this can of worms, Yegg...


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Keskintilki

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantlyRaging View Post
-Reserved-

We need a way to report the troll BEFORE the game. Say all 4 people report 1 person, That person loses LP and we requeue without him
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinzly View Post
or you could jsut let use usevotelick to get rid of that "mid or I feed" guy
This is a great idea, I mean its not like it can be abused.

WHAAAAAAAAA, you picked X champ?? that champs sucks, initiate votekick.

Whaaaaaaaaa they have a better team comp........initiate votekick.


@YEGG,

This will most likely limit the amount of dodges that happen, TY for this. I will reserve my judgment of the ranked system until later, all new change needs time to be accepted.

GD forum goers remind me of my work. I introduce a new change (based on statistical analysis), and 99% go "WHAAAAAA, that is a dumb idea we have been doing it X-way for 3 years there is no better way to do it. 2-3 months later something happens and they have to go back to the old way until it can be fixed (say something broke so it cant be used), then I hear "OMG, when are you gonna fix it, this way sucks, please hurry up"

Anyway, going off tangent here, so TY! Just one suggestion, would it be possible to implement a "FREE" dodge during placement matches?? So that if its one of those where you are 1/1 or 2/2 and you get a troll you can dodge and not be hurt by it? (This would only be once, so if you dodge because you didn't like your chances, and happened to troll/worse teamcomp, well TOUGH!.


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Malza

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Ty I've been saying this but no one seemed to get it.


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Apollinarius

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by etharian View Post
summoner1 makes racist comments in pre-game chat-summoner2 is offended by this
-options available 1)dodge, wait 6 minutes, lose lp
2)waste 20 minutes (assuming your team passes surrender vote)-hopefully the summoner says something racist again in chat so you can report
2b)you're angry when the game starts-summoner1 acts innocent, you yell at summoner1, call him racist, summoner1 reports you-prolly wont get banned though if you're generally friendly-win or lose its a bad experience for summoner2

example2: everyone but summoner5 calls a role-team tries to communicate with summoner5-no reply, summoner5 then locks in role already chosen by team-still doesnt say anything-options available
1) dodge and lose rp/wait 6 minutes
2) play game with a player that isnt communicating in a team game (a reportable offense)-waste 20 minutes, most likely lose due to lack of team coordination-report player-hope he gets banned (which if he does, still lose lp)

example3: summoner1 bans obvious troll bans (champs like heim, ect)-other team has first pick-allowing them to pick up some of the better unbanned champs-summoner1 is clearly giving the other team an advantage on purpose
1) same as all the other choices
2) pretty much same as before, without the option to actually ban
You can always report players, even if a game isn't made. You just have to raise a support ticket, saying "Report a Player" and attach a screen capture of the offending text with some time information so that Riot can find the incident in their database.

You can always report and you should never dodge. That's been my policy, and it's worked pretty well for me, except for the situations where jerks dodge making me wait through another lobby.

I don't mind trolls. They are easy to report and ignore. But dodgers are the worst. They cost everyone time. I hate spending 20 minutes in lobbies to finally get one game going. It's not the troll's fault. It'd the dodging player's fault. As far as I'm concerned, dodging should be punished by not being able to play for 5 hours. No ARAM's, no custom games. Nothing. You get locked out of the client and can't come back in. Then only people who actually have to leave and won't be playing anymore would dodge. Everyone else would suck it up and play the game.


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Keskintilki

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koalawa View Post
What if I need to que dodge because my friend just logged in and I want to duo que with him? ;_;
Only real difference is -LP (small amount) and 1 min penalty. In the old way you'd had to wait at least 30mins. So you are actually coming out ahead.


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Malza

Senior Member

02-01-2013

I actually did notice a HUGE increase in trolls in champ select with how we had no real penalty before.

I didn't have to dodge once from them in season 1 but in season 2 after they removed it I was forced to dodge at least every so often.


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Lady Rose

Member

02-01-2013

why don't you guys implement a role select for ques and have extra ip for roles that are not being playing as much, as an incentive? This way trolling will almost become nonexistent.....


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Sayath

Senior Member

02-01-2013

@ Yegg: What's the amortized cost of queue dodging with the new system?
Afterall, depending on your ELO you gain LP more quickly and lose less LP. Thus one could argue dodging a certain loss might be advantageous (penalty 3 LP versus 10? LP - ELO).
The same calculation could also be done with the higher pentalty (10 LP).

So what I wanna know: How much influence does your hidden MMR play in gaining / losing LP?

This is something that can be datamined (with a large enough set of ranked ladder movement & LP graphs), so talking about it shouldn't be too problematic.


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Hexenir

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keskintilki View Post
This is a great idea, I mean its not like it can be abused.

WHAAAAAAAAA, you picked X champ?? that champs sucks, initiate votekick.

Whaaaaaaaaa they have a better team comp........initiate votekick.
This CAN happen, but WON'T.

Unless you're picking AP Riven or something, there's no way 4 people would kick someone based on champion only.


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Yugi

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Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yegg View Post
Hey all,

To start this discussion, I’d like to go back in time a bit. Back in June of 2012, we announced a change to the ranked queue dodge penalty. It was clarified that the change was somewhat of an experiment and that we'd be making further changes if necessary. At the time, we removed Elo penalties for two reasons:

1. The Elo penalties were undermining the matchmaker and opening up abuse cases that people were very much using.
2. Queue dodging is sometimes a valid defense mechanism against toxic situations, and we didn't want to punish people too harshly for using it.

In many ways this worked out well. Players looking for easy wins could no longer dodge their way down to Elo ratings hundreds or thousands points below their skill level. Other players stuck with true griefers in their lobby could get out of that situation without any permanent penalty. These are all good things.

However, over the last 7 months it became clear that there were three undesirable side effects:

1. Trolls gained more power in champ select.
2. Players were much less willing to work together and became much more focused on what they individually wanted.
3. Some players started using queue dodging to micromanage their Elo gains and would dodge whenever they perceived the matchup to be unfavorable.

The first two above led to an increase in trolling in champ select, which in turns leads to an increase in queue dodging. Combined with the increases from the micromanaging group, it’s now the case that queue dodging is very common in the ranked solo queue.

You might think that I'm crazy based on the first point above. “Trolls gained more power when we removed the Elo penalty?” You're probably also thinking that by increasing the penalty now, we're giving trolls more power because it punishes innocent players who are trying to avoid trolls.

The key is this: most trolls want to win just as much as you do. They might believe they need a certain role to do that, or they might be annoying to interact with, but at the end of the day they generally want to win the games they queue up for. Here's a corollary: most trolls don't want to sit through a 30 minute game rocking Karma/Revive/Promote (or whatever the latest "troll picks" are) just as much as you don't want to be in the game alongside them. What they want when they troll pick is for you to dodge for them, because then they'll get another lobby and they might get the role they want. Think back to the days when there was a 10 Elo penalty for dodging. There was much less troll picking in champ select for one simple reason: it often didn't work. If no one dodges, everyone on the team loses, and no individual wanted to dodge and lose Elo, so everyone was compelled to cooperate more. But with the removal of the Elo penalty, it was almost guaranteed that someone would dodge, and once it was clear that troll picking and/or threatening "X or feed" worked, more players starting doing it.

So here's how the penalties work now that the League System is active:

* Dodging in the ranked solo queue will trigger a 6 minute lockout and will deduct 3 League Points (LP).
* Dodging in ranked solo if you've dodged recently will trigger a 30 minute lockout and will deduct 10 LP.
* Dodging a ranked team game will trigger a 1 minute lockout and will deduct 10 LP from the team.
* Dodging in ranked teams if you've dodged recently will trigger a 60 minute lockout and will still deduct 10 LP from the team.
* Dodging during a Promotion or Division series will cancel the series, so you'll have to get back to 100 LP to start another series (likely just one game away, unless you had already lost a couple series games).

Now that League Points are on the line, there's much more incentive for everyone on the team to work together and try to reach a positive consensus on champions and roles. The number of League Points lost is small enough that it's not a huge setback if a dodge does happen, but it's big enough that players will think twice about dodging just because they don't like the matchup or didn't get their role. Taking away League Points does not tell the matchmaker that you're worse at the game, which means the penalty is no longer opening up abuse cases or leading to unfair matches. We've also greatly shortened the time penalties, and almost completely removed them from ranked team dodges, because it sucks when everyone has to wait around for a teammate's dodge penalty to wear off. In general, our goal here is to reduce the amount of time that it takes you to get a game started by reducing the number of failed lobbies.

As with many changes that we make these days, this is an experiment. We'll be monitoring the effects, both in terms of queue dodge rates and also in terms of the feedback that you all give us on the forums. I'll personally be reading all of the replies in this thread even if I don't have a chance to reply to them.
Perfect.

Also, the people downvoting this thread are oblivious to the situation