Alright riot why remove HoG?

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Frostburner

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm trying to think of a valid analogy here but I apologize if this doesn't make a whole lot of sense due to how late it is and as usual, that means I'm going to use a Magic: The Gathering analogy. :P

Let's say you have a 3/3 creature out on the table compared to a 2/2 creature that gains +2/+2 for every consecutive turn he hasn't attacked and loses them all when he attacks.

On the one hand, the 3/3 creature looks better in every respect - until you are in a situation where you don't or can't attack.

However, in the other case, the 2/2 creature that grows is just continuously better if it's a situation where you don't or can't attack.

This is essentially the core dichotomy of Sightstone versus Heart of Gold - While the Sightstone is tremendously gold efficient, it is only generating gold if you are actively using and aggressively warding on cooldown / base backs.

While Heart of Gold is generating advantage for you no matter what you do, Sightstone forces you to take additional actions to translate to gold efficiency. If you only use Sightstone as a replacement ward for your lane - it's not very gold efficient at all compared to buying 3 or 4 wards for example.

Sorry, that was terrible.

TL;DR - disliked the passive advantage that HoG was giving from taking inaction - while Sightstone doesn't actually generate gold top-lane unless used aggressively to ward more than just the top lane.
My understanding for removing HoG is that it allowed for snowballing in toplane and helped junglers out a lot in addition to Supports. Essentially the top and junglers ruined a good item for supports.

Now as for the sightstone, were junglers also getting this or was this providing too much benefit for the cost for primarily supports? I don't want to see another "support item" nerfed due to other roles getting it because it's good.

If part of the problem is that other roles are getting it as well, could some accommodations be made for supports in the masteries, like a cost reduction if you go deep enough into the utility tree?


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Maou

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm trying to think of a valid analogy here but I apologize if this doesn't make a whole lot of sense due to how late it is and as usual, that means I'm going to use a Magic: The Gathering analogy. :P

Let's say you have a 3/3 creature out on the table compared to a 2/2 creature that gains +2/+2 for every consecutive turn he hasn't attacked and loses them all when he attacks.

On the one hand, the 3/3 creature looks better in every respect - until you are in a situation where you don't or can't attack.

However, in the other case, the 2/2 creature that grows is just continuously better if it's a situation where you don't or can't attack.

This is essentially the core dichotomy of Sightstone versus Heart of Gold - While the Sightstone is tremendously gold efficient, it is only generating gold if you are actively using and aggressively warding on cooldown / base backs.

While Heart of Gold is generating advantage for you no matter what you do, Sightstone forces you to take additional actions to translate to gold efficiency. If you only use Sightstone as a replacement ward for your lane - it's not very gold efficient at all compared to buying 3 or 4 wards for example.

Sorry, that was terrible.

TL;DR - disliked the passive advantage that HoG was giving from taking inaction - while Sightstone doesn't actually generate gold top-lane unless used aggressively to ward more than just the top lane.

This makes sense to those of us who understand magic the gathering =P.

But yes, it just makes sense that HoG was extremely poweful if you're just passively playing, much like the +2 + 2 every turn. Sure if you're using it aggressively, you're not going to get the full potency of it, but if you are passive, and once you find a way to rid the field of the +3 +3, you're going in hard to cause a LOT of damage.


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tempname950

Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by netkitten View Post
most of bruisers wouldn't buy sightstone
on the other hand since the passive gold was increased i doubt hog would be so popular
Lmao.


You are so wrong.


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Zeraphicus

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Am I the only one who thinks the sight stone sucks because of only 2 wards at a time? I still find myself needing to buy wards


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Eleshakai

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeraphicus View Post
Am I the only one who thinks the sight stone sucks because of only 2 wards at a time? I still find myself needing to buy wards
If you have a top and a support with a sightstone... that's 6 wards at a time(since once you have a sightstone - unless lane phase is still going strong - you're foolish not to upgrade it)... 6 wards at a time can keep every key location warded and have 1-2 floater wards.

If your entire team is reliant upon ONE ruby sightstone to ward for everything - yes, you will need to buy more wards. But if you have a ruby sightstone and you have 2-3 other people contributing the occasional ward OR you have a top(or jungle) and support with r. sightstone, you should have enough wards - except the occasional pink to contest control - to keep your entire game relatively well warded.


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Knote

Senior Member

02-01-2013

I'm surprised top laners don't build sight stone, they do need to ward alot, and it is essentially like the old HoG... so yeah.


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Jumping Salmon

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Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm trying to think of a valid analogy here but I apologize if this doesn't make a whole lot of sense due to how late it is and as usual, that means I'm going to use a Magic: The Gathering analogy. :P

Let's say you have a 3/3 creature out on the table compared to a 2/2 creature that gains +2/+2 for every consecutive turn he hasn't attacked and loses them all when he attacks.

On the one hand, the 3/3 creature looks better in every respect - until you are in a situation where you don't or can't attack.

However, in the other case, the 2/2 creature that grows is just continuously better if it's a situation where you don't or can't attack.

This is essentially the core dichotomy of Sightstone versus Heart of Gold - While the Sightstone is tremendously gold efficient, it is only generating gold if you are actively using and aggressively warding on cooldown / base backs.

While Heart of Gold is generating advantage for you no matter what you do, Sightstone forces you to take additional actions to translate to gold efficiency. If you only use Sightstone as a replacement ward for your lane - it's not very gold efficient at all compared to buying 3 or 4 wards for example.

Sorry, that was terrible.

TL;DR - disliked the passive advantage that HoG was giving from taking inaction - while Sightstone doesn't actually generate gold top-lane unless used aggressively to ward more than just the top lane.
Well, to be honest that's a pretty poor analogy. Not only that, but the 3/3 is actually the BETTER option in that situation. It blocks better, doesn't require set up (time or cards to make another card good = wasted tempo), can't be chumped after 4 turns of no use, can race better in multiples, etc etc etc.

Your analogy, ironicly, is better suited to compare buying proactive items (dorans, early AD/AP, penetration) and reactive items like gp10s. As a very active M:tG player (I play in a lot of major tournaments in every format) I'd say HoG is more in line with this:

HoG is a 1/1 1 drop that says "At the beginning of your upkeep, add a +1/+1 counter to this creature". Pretty useless early but outscales most other cards in cmc efficiency during the midgame (much like passive gold benefits you).

Sightstone is much more tricky since you don't have something in magic that gives you increased effectiveness with every use that doesn't turn it into something offensive (a combo or the etc).

You could probably get away with HoG being similar to Exploration and Sightstone being Bird of Paradise. One grants you a perma advantage as the game goes on and one provides you a temp boost as long as you keep it around.


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Mirodir

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Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by timtwins View Post
Heart of gold was too good on champs that weren't supports. Sightstone isn't like that.
In the last tournament matches I've seen almost every jungler had a sight-stone. Sometimes even before the support got to it.


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Arcane Azmadi

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemed RivÍn View Post
But unless if you were behind in lane AND randuins was a viable buy on your champion you wouldn't get it.
Incorrect. Almost EVERYONE bought HoG because EVERYONE likes HP and free gold. The only champs who didn't were those who had to rush key items or who relied on never taking damage to survive (AD carries). EVERY top, EVERY support, EVERY jungler bought it and so did a lot of mids.


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Jericho Hill

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yes, generally overpowered items are better to get than more balanced ones.

nobody in Riot can ever admit they were wrong . . . . ever