Shaco Nerf Makes 0 Sense..

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laxjoh

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViSuoLize View Post
Are you guys really this blind? First of all do you know why i created this thread and did you watch the video to the patch notes? Maybe i should post it. If you didn't then you have no business posting here. You're as dumb as they come. Just cause Morello posted doesn't mean he's right. Thats merely his opinion.
The reason why they base it off of 2000+ elo cases is because you won't lose or win because of mistakes; at higher elos, people will simply capitalize and play a champ to their full potential as well as realizing all their weakness. Many find Akali and Katarina to be seriously problematic low elo. Most people know in higher elo's they aren't as intimidating with a little bit of CC here and there. While people in lower elo's might consider some champs OP because they don't know how to deal with them (Evelynn being one case), it will be more balanced to use a higher elo to base off of as no stupid mistakes or people who just don't know how to deal with them won't be a factor in whether or not to buff/nerf a champ. You want to buff/nerf champions with unbiased view to try to restore balance.

I watched the patch note video few times already just to be sure on the changes for Shaco and Olaf. Shaco is very powerful both early and late game and I'm not just saying this because of Morello. I really hope you read all of this despite the fact you've ignored most people who tried to tell you factual truths about Shaco and why the nerf was justified. I'm not trying to make you sound stupid or insult you; there is such a thing as constructive criticism. What I'm telling you is to hope that you understand better and will adjust to these changes better in the future.

Shaco does not need a leash and can clear the beginning buff very fast. "Leash" now being the sense that your teammates help lower the HP for red/blue. After this, Shaco has the choice to counter jungle or gank at level 2, which he can both do very well. Riot focused A LOT on nerfing early game ganking because they do not want early snowball out of control scenarios because of certain jungling champs excel at it. On top of having a really strong early game, Shaco is very amazing late game because while your teammates are pushing lane/poking but not fighting; Shaco can push lanes really hard and well. He can tank turrets and take them down with relative ease/fast time. On top of all this, if someone tries to catch Shaco from pushing, he can simply teleport and go invis. The whole point of playing Shaco is to be a "trickster." You do a lot of damage but are still squishy therefore you must use movement, environment (bush/wall jumping/etc) to gain advantage on your opponents. To prevent Shaco's amazing effectiveness, they've attempted to nerf his ganking abilities which he is amazing at. Here is the justification why.

As others have stated, the boxes he has provides a very secure red/blue kill at level 1. No other champion can get out after that initial jungle camp with full health like Shaco can. Since this is one of the attractions to Shaco, they nerfed his ganking abilities to balance out the champion as a whole. Just because it's the boxes causing him to have such a good early game in the jungle does not mean they need to nerf the boxes. They can nerf other areas so taht Shaco will be manageable and won't be out of control.

Also, his teleport ability used to jump through walls allow Shaco to be able to tower dive at level 2 and get away with relative ease/secure hp. So far, he makes excellent ganker/excellent at clearing jungle camp because of his ability to tank it with boxes/has amazing mobility/can push really well late game/does a lot of damage/can tower dive starting at level 1 due to his jump.

Really good players who know Shaco CAN counter against him by warding the right locations and trying to predict where they will come from but even skill/experience might not be enough to offset the power of Shaco pre-nerf. At least with this, they will try to balance out how powerful Shaco is by nerfing his ganking abilities, which isn't even that big of a nerf. If you are a good Shaco, the nerf won't affect you THAT big assuming you are still ganking using paths as smart as Shaco players should be doing.


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CaptnJakSparrow

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Sorry, still don't believe it. And them diamonds make a lot of mistakes, too. I can't even count how many fail flashes, oopsy exhausts on the wrong person/fail smites I'vee seen on their end, too. They're nerfing because they don't how to improvise. They want A + B = C. If I ward in said bush, it must stop ALL ganks. If I ward dragon, it must ward EVERYTHING. And, they'll nerf it to the ground until it becomes THAT simple. Which is absurd. Don't believe me? Take a look at all the champions that they're nerfing. All of them are used to try and bypass wards because people don't know how to ward against certain individuals, and refuse to learn how to. And for those that they can't? They just nerf harder anyways. The main victim of this is usuallllllly Shaco, oddly enough.


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Sasori of Krieg

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Senior Member

02-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
He teleports and slows you so fast you can't react. The team with Shaco can zone the enemy all they want unless he shows because of how lightning-fast his gank is - wards do nothing effective against in many cases. The Deceive range nerf is to give you another ~1 second to react to it, and hopefully do something to better your position.

He also split-pushes like a monster, so even late-game he has strong use in coordinated teams.

Shaco should be a ganker, but there's a volume level that's appropriate
That deceive nerf was just too much. His deceive range is less than Ezreal and Tristana, both ranged ADC; as well as not having a CD reset like Tristana's.

Perhaps if you gave it a cooldown reducing effect on kill or assist (not necessarily 100% reset) it would reward good Shaco players while not allowing those who are not as skilled.

Shaco has less burst than many other junglers and from what I have seen split pushing has become a lot less popular. Split pushing makes a 4v5 instead of a 5v5. In games where I am trying to carrying in order to raise my elo I encourage everyone to stay together to avoid dying and losing to a strong mid push.

He could have been strong, but many others are just as strong or stronger. The issue being they are banned nearly always: Shen (who can split push far better than shaco in the fact that he can just ult into a team fight), amumu, and lately I have been seeing Maokai gaining power as a jungler (although he has always been good people have just had little interest in him for awhile, at least in my elo).

My point being just because he was strong and winning does not mean he was broken. He was simply not broken enough to ban in many games making him better than the banned stronger choices. If you bring those others down to his level you will see play even out.

BTW good job on shen nerfs, I'd really like to play him in ranked more, hopefully with the nerfs he will not be banned near 100% of the time.


EDIT:
I also feel Shaco is far less fun to play now. He was difficult to play and difficult to carry with already, while I can play so many other champions who can derp carry like no other with far less ease.

These nerfs have just may him a lot weaker, while making late game pursuit of ADC as an assassin exceedingly difficulty. Range of Deceive is 400, ADC Ezreal flashes away (475 range, likely has slow effect as well), tristana 900 range jumps away, ect.

For the utility of the champions whose roles he is supposed to counter or be able to pursue have these days it makes him quite weaker. Yes Shaco could take these people out late-game. However, for all the utility and CC people have these days it was always very risky. Now it is risky, with **** chances of succeeding.

The Shiv nerfs, I can live with that; but revert the Deceive nerf or implement a CD reduction time upon kill or assist. He needs some compensation for the fact that his skill changes have been making him worse and worse early with no compensation for late game.

I realize Riot balancing staff has hated Shaco for quite some time it is evident from his history (I have been following since the big 1.0.0.99) and it has been funny how he is just nerfed, nerfed,nerfed. Sure there is a bug fix every now and then, but he still has plenty of bugs. The most notorious being the fact that his clone still sometimes does not show items, but that is a different topic.

End of my rant for now. Consider it.


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Blood D Pudding

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Junior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Of Dux View Post
Release skin
Nerf Shaco
**** you riot, seriously
I feel your pain :/


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Kat Commander

Senior Member

02-04-2013

If you're good with Shaco, then the nerf really didn't do anything to him.


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iam PYR0

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Morello why the shaco nerf....? I heard what the rioters said about him... he is getting to the point old eve was at...

Shaco has one position... Jungle I can't really think of any other champion that can only play one role... Yes I remember a long time ago He would hyper carry early game and be a problem late also... But when I look at other champions with similar play styles example lee sin Khazix Rengar or pretty much any other jumping jungler most of which can gank early and kill 3 times as fast as shaco can. The reason I am saying this is I can have pure Ad runes or pure pen runes with shaco and pure offensive masteries and gank the squishiest champ right now at lv two and only take like one bar with my deceive. Shaco was designed similar to the champs I mention in that his job was to shut down hyper carries example. Karthus vayne. he used to be able to take half your health with just decieve yes i can see that being op, but how does that go down to one bar? now you nerfed the range on his jump so now you cant even really deceive from beyond the bush allowing you to sneak up on enemy lanes because of his poof of smoke. Also his boxes don't mix well with his kit..
Suggestion make his boxes pop instantly if laid down in the proximity of enemy champions would provide him the needed cc he needs for ganking lanes without increasing any damage. Change his ult back to being controlled with ALT, the reason I ask this is because due to finger placement controlling your ulty becomes a nuisance more than a helpful tactic do to the fact you cant use your other three spells while controlling it; one finger will be off one of your other spells causing you to mess up. The reason this is so annoying is yes shaco has a free flash but the truth is flash in my opinion should be unique to champion abilities its to strong not to be. the reason this is very obvious is if 10 people in almost 95% of every game take flash does it not seem that its over powered?

Please fix shaco the riot staff themselves said they wanted to make champions so each of us would have several champions they could fall in love with and fit them. shaco is one of them for me and as someone who has spend i think if I would to guess at least 2 grand if not more on your content I would like to think i mean something to you at the very least please here me out. Their are so many more op champions but you nerfed shaco...


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Sasori of Krieg

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Senior Member

02-06-2013

bump


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HedonismBot420

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Morello is an idiot, and a 1500 elo scrub to boot.


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Han Yolo Que

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Senior Member

02-06-2013

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/19746754#history

love me some shaco, the nerfs didn't do anything to him.


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type1Rush

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You're over-valuing the stealth here to an extent, because a 500-range instant teleport with that cooldown, alone, is one of the most powerful abilities in League. Add stealth, and well...
So this is what happens when Irelia doesnt need nerfed =(

You nerf Shaco, instead of the handfull of other champions that are blatantly OP right now, just because of his Q..

I will agree Shaco is strong, and his lategame is no where near as bad as people would lead you belive, but Shaco's early game helps soften the blow of his real weak point, his mid game ((which could be argued as being the most important time in a game))..
If Shaco has a bad early game ((dies, or doesnt covert any ganks, and becomes underleveled)), then his mid game becomes an absolute nightmare to survive, and the game effectivly becomes a 4v5 for a period of time. Sure if you can survive that, then his lategame is good ((but it is increasingly hard to survive that mid game as Shaco, if you dont start well)), but hurting his early game, just for the sake of hurting it, while allowing his mid game to be one of the most abyssal in the game just doesnt make sense to me, expecially when you consider his lategame is no where near that strong.

Im not saying he is unplayable right now, as I still play him, post-nerf, and I still do decent with him. What I am saying, is that it seems unneeded, because ALOT of people are starting with wards now-a-days, which already hurts Shaco's early gank potential, but also ALOT of people are understanding Shacos early level ganks paths alot better now, with the popularity he had for a little while ((not to mention the telltale sign that Shaco is inc. with that orange cloud of smoke)), which also makes his early ganking even harder, and these things lead to Shaco having to suffer through his abyssal mid game, in its entirty, instead of being able to soften it a little bit, which only hurt his lategame even more than what it already was..