Shaco Nerf Makes 0 Sense..

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Ayyy

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Hey Morello, I see your points about shaco, and yea, he can be a terror in the right hands. But shouldn't LoL be balanced as a team game? Meaning you should be balancing more so for team ranked and with the tournaments that go on, rather than solo queue?

When I see someone like Shaco, I see a pubstomper, where with the proper amount of teamwork, you can overcome him, but you don't really see that in pub games, meaning he becomes extremely scary. He's played at high level play in solo queue, yes, but he is never picked in tournaments, and I would make a safe bet that at high elo in team ranked, simply because he was very risky to run against a team with proper communication, and thus is why champs like Cho'gath are the common jungler picks, because they are safe.

What I'm saying is, Shaco is strong. But I really don't think he needed a nerf. He was in a good place.


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Defiant1

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by datPanda View Post
I don't know why they disregard Shaco in general, but I think Saintvicious once mentioned on his stream that Shaco was boring to play, too reliant on ganks, and doesn't fit most of his teams well.

Generally most of the pros prefer playing safe already and that probably isn't good for Shaco.
Makes sense. And the part about pros playing it safe, does this mean Shaco is considered a high risk-high reward champion? (perhaps medium-to-low reward now).


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Moosenocalypse

Senior Member

01-31-2013

How can you honestly say Shaco has a good late game? He NEEDS his early game ganks in order to get kills so he doesn't fall off so bad in late game. If you're not at least 3 kills by mid game you're almost automatically screwed and nothing more than a bit of disruption that blows up in 3 seconds, and I'm not talking bout the clone.


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Gorsz

Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViSuoLize View Post
You and the 2 other dudes who ive been arguing with are the only ones downvoting hahaha. Me on the other hand don't care enough to downvote you. This entire argument is cause of my initial post lol what are you talking about? If they aren't supporting my argument then what are they upvoting me for? Yawn~ you so silly bro.

Lets count.

Me +2 other dudes = 3 downvotes.


Almost all of your posts have a lot more than that.

You really cannot be this stupid man..

They are upvoting your original post because most of the time nerfs are unfavorable to the majority you simpleton.

Thats like saying in your initial post "we should get free money!!" and people upvote you.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardboardowl View Post
Morello

I am a shaco main with over 400 games on him. I abused him and other junglers to get past 2.1k elo season 2 and maintain a high win rate on him in season 3. The majority of my losses are from my own mistakes early on which crippled me and 4v5s.


You were 100% spot on in nerfing his Q range. It is pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to ward against a shaco who knows what he is doing. I know how to bypass so many wards on bot lane for example, you have to have 5 to cover every single angle and you need to have them up constantly.


His late game is strong, the only thing is he has a strong late when he has a strong early.


This nerf was totally needed, I was worried they would mess with his jacks or shiv or something but this is much better and a necessary nerf.


This may not mean much to you, but I am a guy who has invested nearly 100 hours into shaco alone, and I agree with you 100%.
You know, if you replaced the word "Shaco" with "Lee Sin" in that post, it would work too.

To do well with Shaco, you probably need to be quite skilled with him.

At which point, why shouldn't you be doing extremely well?


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Rhadeonyc

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorsz View Post
Why do people think shaco is a useless team fight champion?

Is it really hard to build GA and dive the ADC with your team? Shaco can still be a major threat to squishys late game.
And what make u so sure that strategy will always works? thats the problem with this champ this people is take decisitions based on a 100% accuracy perspective and it is not! yeah dive the carry build a GA oh wait forgot ur not khazin and u dont hav THAT BURST u need to do it so before u can even take the carry down ur GA is already poppin most of the cases so what u got? if Decieve is still on CD ur a dead shaco, if not u can decieve out, look for some jungle creeps and try to get some health with life steal and come back 20 secs before to see if u can still do something, JITB is worthless for anykind of fight situation only works for jungling, and as scape mechanism since at mid late game, the miniam AoE or HP boost from any item will make it also his dmg useless.

ok u know what say w/e morello and people i just quit playing Shaco until i see some kind of buff or something to his kit


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Cardboardowl

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Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tainted Moose View Post
How can you honestly say Shaco has a good late game? He NEEDS his early game ganks in order to get kills so he doesn't fall so bad in late game. If your not at least 3 kills by mid game your almost automatically screwed and nothing more than a bit of disruption that blows up in 3 seconds, and I'm not talking bout the clone.
if you dont have 3-6 kills by 20 minutes as shaco you dont deserve to have a late game


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ViSuoLize

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by epaR sbooN View Post
atleast 39 blinded shaco fanboys ... yes some champ mains like you dont give a **** about the balance of their own main and just pretend to disagree in the sake of their free elo obnoxious champion
HAHAHA ya, ofc they're blind. Sounds like someones holding a grudge on poor'ol Shaco.


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WhackedRak

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Senior Member

01-31-2013

Honestly number changes aren't the right direction for Shaco. He needs ability reworks, not just number tweaks. Pretty much all of Shaco's moves have been nerfed to be one-point wonders, where leveling them doesn't give many benefits(certainly not as many as the average champion) Deceive damage isn't too useful as most of the time he won't be using that crit, and Jack in the Box is soo unreliable and fragile, you can't count on the longer 2 second fear or the increased damage they provide since they'll probably be blown up pretty quick or activated 2 seconds too late. E is the only skill worth leveling for the increased damage on the active and perma slow, nerfing this hard will make all his moves one-point wonders. If this is the only solution to nerf Shaco at this point, he needs A REWORK.

Shaco is my main. He came out the week I started LoL, and have loved him/abused him ever since. Granted I'm too ***** to play ranked, I still have probably over 750 games played with him and I suspect my normal ELO is pretty high; I was 2k before LoLMatches stopped tracking normal ELO, and my Win/Loss Diff has only widened since then. I love assassins, they are my favorite role. I try to snowball Shaco with IE/Youmuus whenever I can. Crit Shaco was the reason I fell in love with LoL. But after grinding so many games, I've narrowed down and found tanky support Shaco to be the most effective and guaranteed way to win the game. When ganking, I try to give as many kills to my teammates as possible, to ensure they continue to win their lane. Nowadays, if the game even has the slight smell of possibly going sour later, I build Hexdrinker, GA(see youngMINI), but if we're completely crushing them, I go BT, SotD. In high elo games, I'm sure 90% of the time the tanky build will always be the better pick as Shaco just can't fulfill that AD assassin role very well late game. Lately, I've drawn to Khazix more as he feels like the Shaco 2.0 I've always wanted, but it makes me sad to neglect the clown. I think Shaco should be reworked to be able to be built like an assassin instead of the overwhelmingly good early game lane supporter he is now.

Shaco is obviously OP because of those early game ganks, but also because of that first clear. He's still able to get four boxes down before buffs spawn + a 5th during. He saves smite by himself and moves to the 2nd buff(his own or the enemies) and clears it for level 3 20 seconds faster than any other champ can. He can then terrorize the enemy jungler during that time with a level and buff advantage. Let him call his lvl 1 lanemates into his own jungle only to die as well. A great Shaco player won't let up and continue hunting the enemy jungler so they fall behind to the point of it being insurmountable.

He should really have one or the other; amazing ganks or super fast buffs. I think they should both be hurt quite a bit but he should be compensated in his late game assassinating. Here's how I think it should be done.

The backstab passive should be made into more of an active, something that gives 50% increased damage once for the first time he backstabs and then goes on CD for 5-8 seconds. The enemy won't be completely and consistently gimped by trying to retreat from Shaco.

Deceive. Shaco players will probably hate me for this and cling to all the free elo they gained from his ganks but I think the stealth duration should be nerfed. It's currently 3.5 seconds. I think it should be 1.5-2 seconds. The CD should remain at 11 seconds. However, getting a kill or assist should reduce its CD by 2/3/4/5/6 seconds, which is up to half of the normal CD. If the Shaco wants a true reset on this skill, he will need it to be rank 5 and have 40% CDR.

Jack in the Boxes. The health on these should act similarly to Zyra plants. They have the technology now to allow these to not blow up instantly in fights. Doing this will nerf them to take up to 3 hits from jungle mobs but give them more consistency against champions. A good Shaco will still tightly manage the monster aggro to get fast jungle clears but they'll need a bit more durability.

Two Shiv Poison. What I like and I think most Shaco players like about this move is how they can stick to characters with good microing that results in a perma slow on the opponent(with enough points in it). The problem is that this is not very fun for the enemy when they have no escape and are slowed by a perma 30%. During the gank this also greatly helps SHaco's teammate catch up and unleash his power on him. In my opinion Shaco should steal 15% movespeed from the target. Shaco gains 15% while the opponents loses 15%. In this way, Shaco can stick to the target just the same, but the target can still escape back to the turret faster and possibly still evade the lane opponent since he gains no movepeed from the skill. Perhaps activating E still slows them by the full 30% amount however.

Hallucinate. No changes. This skill is great for mitigation,deceivery, turret diving, extra dps, etc.

The result. Shaco's early game is nerfed hard but not incredibly hard. However he now is able to totally BEAST as an assassin during team fights. The combination of increased move speed and a deceive reset CD that meshes with his backstab CD means he has the potential to do some insane AD Burst every few seconds while still managing to escape some sticky situations with Deceive, but not as many as before. This type of high adrenaline, quick-thinking teamfighting is what I long for from assassins and Shaco in general, even if I would have to say good-bye to his overwhelming early game dominance.


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TheDraco4011

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You're over-valuing the stealth here to an extent, because a 500-range instant teleport with that cooldown, alone, is one of the most powerful abilities in League. Add stealth, and well...
Im all for the range decrease on q to fit with flash, its the early game slow nerf im confused about. Unless you are runed up on ats, making him incredibly squishy, it would be really easy for many champs even when overextended to flat out escape summoner spell free unless your laner has some hard cc. The only way I can think to remain viable is hope your enemy is ignorant to Shaco's abilities or an all or nothing counter gank.