How to Make Darius More Fun for Everyone

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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MemoryLapse View Post
Ok since we are defining tanks in completely different ways I will be more precise.

Please identify a melee champ that scales off of AD that can effectively counter Darius.
pretty much any carry can do well against him but ashe, cait, draven and ezreal have been known to do particularily well though none of them are particularly safe during aggressive ganks.

teemo, kayle, i think yorick, and elise are some oddballs that do well against him and happen to do a bit better against ganks.

AD tanks don't do so well though AD bruiser shen or leona can probably lane well against him.

If you want to counter him throughout the entire game, possibly on a larger scope than necessary, volibear can do this. Anybody with peels such as chogath or singed or vi could do this.

If you want to beat him down with brute force there's vi, jayce, vayne with IE, somewhat farmed nasus, and earlygame fiora

If you want to outduel him with ease there's irelia, shaco, kayle, sion, counterbruiserbruiserlux, nocturne or really anybody with a denial to his ult, earlygame vayne, olaf, jax, and zed.

If you want to outfarm, harrass, zone, control lane, and gank harder than him everytime you gain even the slightest upperhand even if you arent necessarily going to directly counter him there's jax, vi, olaf, riven, irelia, katarina, talon, lee sin, and some others.

If you arent laning against him but you want to counter him later on or want to switch lanes to help somebody out so you can annoy the **** out of him early and **** on him late there's talon, pantheon, kayle again, teemo again, jayce, and others with blinds peels, stuns or whatever.

I'm sure there's more ways to look at it but he is not limited to the 5-10 counters most people list.

If you don't like to think and just want to limit yourself to easy inlane victories that may or may not be able to counteract the rest of his team disallowing any form of comeback from him or anyone else there's
kayle, teemo, garen, nidalee, and cait who don't have reliable CC
Theirs vlad, tryn, rumble and some others who may or may not be needed in your teamcomp which can weaken it if chosen just to counter darius and not their whole teamcomp.

Not to say these are bad picks, just dont screw yourself trying to counter darius. In the long run he is rarely the biggest issue you will face even though he will appear to be the one that's killing you and your team off.


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VaschLagHammer

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Bump

Quote:
Originally Posted by MemoryLapse View Post
Ok here's the problem:

Setup: Solo Queue Ranked Game @ Silver'ish elo, Enemy picks Darius top

Let's say I take a ranged champ top like Teemo or something and yes I win my lane. Lets assume I get 100cs for every 66 cs he gets, a generous gap. Top is won, great. So what the problem?

In order to beat Darius you had to give up your teams chance to get a fed tank. In solo q there is no way in hell you can force someone to play a tank in mid just so you can Teemo top. You are lucky to get 5 ppl willing to take different lanes in the first place. Its equally unreliable to get the jungler to play a tank.

And even if either one of those lanes decides to be cooperative there is no guarantee that putting a tank in those alternate roles will result in a good match up.

Meanwhile bruiser Darius has handicapped your teams ability to initiate a team fight even though he "lost" his lane. In full ranked 5v5 teams...this is less of an issue. You can get someone to tank when you have a full team.

But what of solo q folks just trying to grind their way up to gold elo? It's just easier for them to ban Darius and take his imbalanced design out of the equation. It's been my experience (300+ ranked solo games this season in the SIlver range, almost all solo top) that more often than not ppl fight over lanes to begin with. If you somehow manage to get ppl to agree to take separate roles, there is no guarantee you will get a fed tank out of the laning phase.

Darius should not limit the enemy team to picking a ranged champ up top. No other AD based melee hero has this effect on the other team.
Play olaf or jax if you want a tank. Any champ with poke beats him


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VitaminBeer

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
A well written, actually logically thought-out post. Inaccurate in a few points, but by far the most intellectual thing I have ever read regarding changing Darius. So there IS intelligent life out there...

Of course, there has to be THIS guy that makes me fear for the number of intelligent life forms.
Calm down dude don't get so worked up or your anger will lead you to the darksside
Btw your post isn't very helpful either


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Kreshel

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Senior Member

02-01-2013

how do you dare to question the Dunk King? He is the hand of Noxus, the strongest of them all. Be respectful. CertainlyT and the whole Riot team want him to be the strongest. You speak like desiring balance, there is no balance.


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MemoryLapse

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by VaschLagHammer View Post
Bump

Play olaf or jax if you want a tank. Any champ with poke beats him
Darius can destroy an olaf top, I dont even know what to say to that. Seems like you dont play top much...

Jax needs lvl 3 to compete with darius' damage, giving Darius a few minutes to gain a gold advantage that he can snowball from. Jax also needs AP. He is not a tank in the sense that an Olaf or a Darius is, so I am not really interested in comparing them.

If I wanted to counter darius it would be easy to just use a ranged champ, there are many to choose from. I am trying to point out that there are no AD tanks that can compete with Darius on even terms. That is the heart of what is wrong with Darius. We should have a few choices of tanks that stand a chance at him. Darius is currently at the top of that list.


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GonefishingX

Senior Member

02-01-2013

To point something out, I never claimed Darius as overpowered. Against lower skilled opponents he becomes incredibly strong but against higher skilled opponents Darius becomes almost worthless. Hardly overpowered, but simply not optimally designed for every level of play.

Also, I would hardly consider my suggestions nerfs. Darius usually uses his ult once or twice in a team fight, adding a cooldown simply prevents him from rofl-stomping newer players and murdering the whole team. Adding a limit to the number of things he can pull with apprehend is also not a nerf, it simply prevents lesser skilled darius players from dominating the lane and creates more counterplay. Mind you the limit would be like 3/4/5/6/7 enemies, so you will usually grab someone even if they aren't exceedingly stupid.


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GonefishingX

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnack View Post
Um you use the execution ability wrong and you do not get the refresh, his signature skill is on cooldown, and his mana pool took a hit.

And if you do even less. If you don't get full bleed it won't do full damage.

It's a straight up execution skill. It doesn't need to kick you in the nuts then shoot your dog if you louse up.

His skill is an execution that deals true damage. You use it on low HP targets. That's who you use it on.
The refresh is a reward for using the ability to kill steal in most situations, thus rewarding poor teamwork instead of punishing it. Also the punishment for not killing with it is what would happen if you used every other ability in the game (for the Most part). Noxian Guillotine actively encourages the player to use it to kill steal from allies, because to not use it that way would be a less effective use of the ability.

Perhaps my suggestions aren't the best options for remedying the poor design of the ability but it was simply to get a conversation going .


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Carnack

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonefishingX View Post
To point something out, I never claimed Darius as overpowered. Against lower skilled opponents he becomes incredibly strong but against higher skilled opponents Darius becomes almost worthless. Hardly overpowered, but simply not optimally designed for every level of play.

Also, I would hardly consider my suggestions nerfs.

Problem is that you already outlined the issue. He is strong against unskilled players but not against skilled ones.

Further having read your original post I'm seeing nothing but suggestions making him weaker

This being posed as a supposed solution to the way he looks to skilled an unskilled players.

I highly doubt that the his problem is a lack of skill investment in regards to skilled players.

It's more like he's just not providing a lot to the team.


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Carnack

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonefishingX View Post
The refresh is a reward for using the ability to kill steal in most situations, thus rewarding poor teamwork instead of punishing it..
Well poor teamwork can lose games. You take the kill from the carry and thus deprive your team of it's prime damage dealer.

However that can be done with any damage skill. It falls to the player to make the call. From what I see it's not rewarding you for bad teamwork. It's rewarding you for patience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonefishingX View Post
Also the punishment for not killing with it is what would happen if you used every other ability in the game (for the Most part).
Except that it's on a champ that has a refresh and limited mana.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonefishingX View Post
Noxian Guillotine actively encourages the player to use it to kill steal from allies, because to not use it that way would be a less effective use of the ability.
False It does encourage you to wait till you can get the kill. It falls on the player to be judicious in it's use.


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VitaminBeer

Senior Member

02-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnack View Post
Problem is that you already outlined the issue. He is strong against unskilled players but not against skilled ones.

Further having read your original post I'm seeing nothing but suggestions making him weaker

This being posed as a supposed solution to the way he looks to skilled an unskilled players.

I highly doubt that the his problem is a lack of skill investment in regards to skilled players.

It's more like he's just not providing a lot to the team.
Even with skilled players he's annoying to play against, think of those pro blitzcranks always landing the grab

Darius is the same way he zones you out of the lane in fear of instant death, his burst dmg is way too high