Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Biracialmage

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashGizmo View Post
I went to the Battlegrounds in Norwalk every once in awhile to draft @ FNM.
Hm guess not. I just remember someone signing up for the smash tourneys using Mogwai as a handle. We were a small lan center in Buckland Hills mall and then moved to Vernon.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Phil Nye

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashGizmo View Post
Different strokes for different folks I guess. Melee has the most dynamic combo system I've ever played from both sides of the combo and that's hugely appealing to me. I personally find high level Brawl matches exceedingly boring and a large portion of that is due to the drawn out neutral game since each hit results in such a small payoff. For instance, the Apex 2013 Brawl Grand Final is easily one of the hypest matches in the history of the game, and yet I couldn't help but find myself bored watching M2K and Salem desperately try to land the final hit.
That match was pretty amazing, although admittedly it is probably true that Brawl players tend to hype over things not a lot of other communities would haha :P (one Melee member put it, "they would get completely hyped over a Diddy Kong pulling out a ****ing banana")

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashGizmo View Post
not sure where you'd recognize my name from. my tag on Smashboards is Mogwai and I use the title "Smash Gizmo" there, so that's possible, and I also stream LoL, with most of my following coming from Smashboards and Teamliquid (where I also have a big forum presence). if it's none of that, I have no idea why it would be familiar...
I know where I've seen your name before now, your YT channel was named "SmashGizmo" right? Also, Mogwai is definitely a name I recognize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashGizmo View Post
re: complexity for complexity's sake in Melee, I agree, though a lot of that complexity feels accidental. L-canceling is the only advanced technique that doesn't seem like it could be anything but intentional. As a former coder, I can 100% see how Wavedashing, Float Canceling, Edge Canceling, Super Wavedashing, Jump Canceling, etc could have been unintentionally added to the game.

re: Melee not entirely accidental, iirc, Wavedashing was discovered in Dev or QA for Melee, had a different nickname, and was left in as something they didn't believe would be problematic. I want to say it was a Nintendo Power interview with Sakurai around the time of Brawl's release where this was talked about.
I remember that interview, that was one of the things that made me think that it wasn't all a pure accident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashGizmo View Post
I think you were looking for the word tenuous at the end there .
Likely, although I think I was attempting to allude to an apparent "tense" atmosphere especially whenever something like smash is brought up on, say, SRK. "Tedious" was hinting at how delicate diplomacy has been to be made in the smash community as a whole with other FGC, although it's true that the relationship looks amicable between Melee and other FGCs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashGizmo View Post
I honestly think the biggest blame for Evo 2008 should fall on whoever decided that Brawl should be there that quickly after its release. Smash is an odd case, as it doesn't come out of the box with a balanced tournament ruleset and requires a decent bit of community work to actually sculpt it into a Fighting Game. I can't fault whoever wrote the Evo ruleset for questioning the status quo, nor can I fault the community for rejecting a ruleset that violated many of their core beliefs. I think if Evo 2008 had hosted Melee and Evo 2009 had hosted Brawl once a standardized ruleset had settled, a lot of drama could've been averted.
I think I actually remember Brawl (and Melee) being done again at Evo 2k9, although it was considered purely a "side tournament" and pretty much left the smash community to form the rules, but also practically segregated them to a more isolated portion of the venue physically :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashGizmo View Post
That being said, I think Melee and the greater FGC are well on their way to a full reconciliation. Many prominent FGC members have vocally praised Melee as a game and the community's resilience and we're seeing some real crossover from Melee to new Fighting Games with guys like AlukardNY in Ultimate Marvel 3. But with how fractured off Brawl is from Melee, I don't realistically seeing the Brawl community and the greater FGC burying the hatchet anytime soon, even if Brawl and Melee have had it buried more or less for years.


Another hour, another Wall of Text, gnight folks. Next time you see me, I will have Warring Kingdoms Xin as my avatar, peace.
Agreed. One more question, what is your opinion on Project:M?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ions03

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Diablo 3 worst game of all time, the fact super mario rpg legends of the seven stars part 2 never came out, Duke nukem the new one sucked.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SmashGizmo

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

QA Analyst

02-11-2013
90 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biracialmage View Post
Hm guess not. I just remember someone signing up for the smash tourneys using Mogwai as a handle. We were a small lan center in Buckland Hills mall and then moved to Vernon.
I definitely went to a tournament or two there, but that was years ago .


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SmashGizmo

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

QA Analyst

02-11-2013
91 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Nye View Post
That match was pretty amazing, although admittedly it is probably true that Brawl players tend to hype over things not a lot of other communities would haha :P (one Melee member put it, "they would get completely hyped over a Diddy Kong pulling out a ****ing banana")


I know where I've seen your name before now, your YT channel was named "SmashGizmo" right? Also, Mogwai is definitely a name I recognize.

SNIP

Agreed. One more question, what is your opinion on Project:M?
yep, that's my YT channel.

Project M is a cool community endeavor that I just can't get into =\. Any time I play it, I find myself going, "hey this is close to Melee! ... oh wait, why don't I just play Melee?" . I think it's cool that people are doing it and that some folks enjoy it, but my feeling is still just that if I wanted to play Melee, I'd just play Melee rather than playing an attempt at hacking Brawl into Melee that still needs a lot of polish.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Syndras Balls

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashGizmo View Post
Project M is a cool community endeavor that I just can't get into =\. Any time I play it, I find myself going, "hey this is close to Melee! ... oh wait, why don't I just play Melee?" . I think it's cool that people are doing it and that some folks enjoy it, but my feeling is still just that if I wanted to play Melee, I'd just play Melee rather than playing an attempt at hacking Brawl into Melee that still needs a lot of polish.
close to melee but with a lot more characters, which is apparently what people wanted anyway


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Firellius

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashGizmo View Post
That aside, I have no idea why it "makes [you] sad that there is a significant group of people who prefer the older game." The new game failed to win us over, nothing more. This shouldn't impact your enjoyment of the game and I can't see why it's any concern of yours whether or not the competitive community embraced Brawl.
Because it means you'll get burned at the internet-stake. Declare that you like Brawl, and you'll have a torrent of complaints about tripping coming at you.

Same thing with using IE, disliking Skyrim (Not up to TES standards, imo), disliking gangnam style, etc. etc.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NadalKenlyl

Senior Member

02-11-2013

I have a question for Rioters - did any of you play other AOS games on Warcraft 3? The games that we now call "moba?" If so, which ones? I still have the opinion that a game called Legends of Eternity was the best damn AoS game ever invented, although it wasn't perfect of course, but there were so many factors in it to make it competitive while still having checks and balances everywhere to make sure that you had to have superior teamwork to win.

@Riot @Morello


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Carl10

Junior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biracialmage View Post
I think the sawed off is the Darius of that game. It's fun to get kills with, but feels horrible to die to. I wasn't really referring to retro lancers and sawed off though. I meant when they put the huge focus on lancer camping. If you move anywhere out of cover, you're going to get sprayed for days and slowed by like 80% since the hitbox for the lancer slow seemed to be the front 180 degrees. If that wasn't bad enough, the gnasher got castrated and several different grenades were introduced, forcing you into catch 22s if you were losing. Either stay and eat tons of damage from the poison or fire grenade or run out and move at 20% ms and go down to lancer fire.

The biggest thing is that in GoW 1, you could pick people off in skirmishes and mount a comeback from 4v1s which lead to amazing highs. You can still kind of do it in 2 and 3, but they made it much harder. I see where they were coming from, but I feel like they should have accepted that people played Gears like it was Gears and ran with it, and not forcing game play to be a hyper gory rainbow six.
nicely said


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hidden Sniper

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Every mmo since Ultima Online.


Everyone thinks that limited freedom and WoW clones are good. They aren't, they are boring. In the past UO actually had every town have it's own economy that still hasn't been emulated on pservers today. You could run products from one town to the next and make profit, and these complex things were done like 20 years ago. The sheer amount of ingenuity and originality is gone nowadays. The masses buy these new "clones" and companies get rich so more keep being made. I want a game where I actually MAKE a character. Not follow a set template where the only difference is the equipment (because there will always be "skills" better than others because game developers can't figure out the difference between "REALLY USEFUL", and "It would be useful if it did more"). I haven't been excited for Elder Scrolls Online for example. Months ago I looked it up and the previews were relating everything to every other mmo out there. If you want me to buy that, you'd better make it like MORROWIND ONLINE, not FANBOY ONLINE, or UNORIGINAL ONLINE. That was also my biggest beef with Star Wars the Old Republic, it was miles from any Old Republic game I played and played like every other mmo out there. Most games now follow this rule as well, not only mmos. One of my favorite companies in gaming is Double Fine, because they take risks and do unique stuff no other company would try, and I really wish more people would do that. The people who made UO didn't follow any rules, they set out and did something no one else had done before. THAT is what we need, now more than ever in this age in everything, not just limited to gaming.

Another great example, but in the strategy field imo is Supreme Commander. Very unique, very different. They didn't go "Tech trees for upgrades and stuff need to be added here", they were like "Fk that ****, lets do this instead".