Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

First Riot Post
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Dex7ter

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is why we have to prioritize the older ones first - Poppy's a really valid critique in this area.

As to why, I just think no one has taken it on yet. We've grown the live team from a team of 3 people (Guinsoo, Shurelia and Classick) to a big team capable of doing more than just balance for the first time in Riot's history - that's good news. Things like Season 3, Stealth actually getting done (!) and more higher-scope changes are already things we could accomplish, and Champion reworks are on the menu coming up. Some of the problems, like top lane issues, require it in fact.

There does remain, though, that some champions need heavy under-the-hood work to be fixed. Buffing a champion that does bad things to the game (and lessens the strategic interest/game health/experience for all people not playing that champion) is not worth making a top pick until these things are fixed. And remember, for most of us, nearly every champion is perfectly viable to play.

The perception spoken of "ridiculed for playing X" will not stop via balance, or game design. There will always be the impression of a weakest, a set of black sheep champions. We even sometimes do buffs just to change perception. +5 movement speed to Vayne is a small, small buff for a character with the level of move-blocking she does, but got her from "trash tier" to "great!"

That doesn't mean the balance issues shouldn't be worked on, but remember this is all relative and perspective.

Well u talk about champions balance but what about rest of the stuff:
1. tribunal don't work as he should, people use to much punish button.
2. In champion select u can troll from season 1 without any punish system.
3. New ranked system, well its new its a lot of grind and i dont think people like it, next time please test new ideas a little more on pbe server. U need to tweak this system so much i dont know who make this call that this system was not ready to publish when there is so many problems.
4. Matchmaking is next example, when u cant fnd the right balance, mm have only small tweaks when u need it improve it a lot, there so many tweks that u can improve but u still dont even touch the right problem.
5. Bad balance khazix, zed, elise, jayce, isnt not oly eve.


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Skaarrjj

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is why we have to prioritize the older ones first - Poppy's a really valid critique in this area.

As to why, I just think no one has taken it on yet. We've grown the live team from a team of 3 people (Guinsoo, Shurelia and Classick) to a big team capable of doing more than just balance for the first time in Riot's history - that's good news. Things like Season 3, Stealth actually getting done (!) and more higher-scope changes are already things we could accomplish, and Champion reworks are on the menu coming up. Some of the problems, like top lane issues, require it in fact.

There does remain, though, that some champions need heavy under-the-hood work to be fixed. Buffing a champion that does bad things to the game (and lessens the strategic interest/game health/experience for all people not playing that champion) is not worth making a top pick until these things are fixed. And remember, for most of us, nearly every champion is perfectly viable to play.

The perception spoken of "ridiculed for playing X" will not stop via balance, or game design. There will always be the impression of a weakest, a set of black sheep champions. We even sometimes do buffs just to change perception. +5 movement speed to Vayne is a small, small buff for a character with the level of move-blocking she does, but got her from "trash tier" to "great!"

That doesn't mean the balance issues shouldn't be worked on, but remember this is all relative and perspective.
If you don't think that balance issues with champions should be the top priority in this game.............


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Syrusa

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
This is why we have to prioritize the older ones first - Poppy's a really valid critique in this area.

As to why, I just think no one has taken it on yet. We've grown the live team from a team of 3 people (Guinsoo, Shurelia and Classick) to a big team capable of doing more than just balance for the first time in Riot's history - that's good news.
Would hiring more people be a viable option or no?
Yall probably have enough resources to give the entire game a rework in a month and have it be fantastic.


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Raptoreyes

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You don't like WoW (clearly!), but this is the attitude I'm saying is flatly incorrect. WoW is a well-crafted game that you do not happen to like. Our own personal tastes do not equate to what is good and bad in game development, only what our potential engagement is. And, to be frank, if you're not the audience, it has little impact on anyone else.

I don't like playing Halo. Halo is an extremely good game.
The trouble is WoW had a great pvp community that grew up around it by accident and the developers were too stupid for the longest time to capitalize on that. Instead they put out items in raids that polluted the balance of pvp. Toward the end pvp players were forming guilds of 600 or more players and simply blocking the entrance to high level instances out of fustration with what little blizzard released for pvp as opposed to pve. Arenas came out but "fish boul" pvp is a pale shadow of true world pvp. One of the reasons your game has done so well Morello is simply because the map in LOL is large enough to feel like world pvp that WOW players always wanted.

The solo vs solo mindset of wow pvp players is also a reason so many people choose great 1v1 champs and focus on lane phase dominance barely building any items for group pvp at all. Different players play for different reasons and many play for the lane phase mini game with little desire to transition to team fights.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

02-10-2013

I'd like to point out that a major reason melee and brawl are so both inherently so unbalanced or why poor/weird mechanics persist is that balanced was handled by a single person; this likely explains why Meta Knight is so broken--it was clear from the beginning the dev really really liked Meta Knight (since he designed the Kirby franchise and all), but unfortunately it clouded his balancing judgment and it led to the most retardedly unbalanaced character he's ever created for the smash series.


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Grey Wolf

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
If everything's equally important, then nothing has importance.
That sounds like an Animal Farm quote.

Wait, wait. Is Morello a Communist?


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Beatslave

Junior Member

02-10-2013

I know that Riot knows, that us EU players who started playing before the EU servers we're up, really want to stay on NA, hence no transfer >.>


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SillyFearz

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
You misunderstand a few things here;

1) Eve is the only champion we've ever intentionally overnerfed. No other examples are intentional overnerfs.

2) "Trash tier" is really subjective and in many cases the product of bandwagoning an opinion (Ezreal). Irelia is absolutely not trash tier - Poppy's more valid. In this case, your definition of "trash tier" is "not good in most lineups." See my earlier posts on this. There are only a small handful (~5-10 max) of champions who could earnestly be considered in this.

3) Based on the previous two, you're assigning a lot of intent to this. We're already working hard on several champions like Karma and Heimerdinger, and yes, they are more important. If we could do them all at the same time, then sure we would - but that's not how things actually work. But dropping everything and fixing any champion the community has agreed is bad is not the most important thing we could do. Yes, doing them faster is important (and hence why you're seeing more this year, and why we made a rework team just to deal with this) but the zeal you're using here does not equate to the actual importance of "a few champions aren't as good as others."

And what of the tradeoffs? What happens when Irelia is healthy for the game - do players actually get mad that she's viable but not the same character? How many more fighters like this do we need to get through to make it so top lane isn't a cesspool (a bigger problem than "Irelia's not as good as X").

This needs to be done, we agree there, but it's not as important as other things. If everything's equally important, then nothing has importance.
1) I think to a lot of people it seems like your overnerf a lot of champions to oblivion and then say it was an accident only to slowly bring their power up.

2) I do think being trash tier is somewhat of what people see in champion. Though there are some champs who really really dont have the usefulness of others and because of that will never see play and I just think that worries people that have some attachment to that champ since they played with them when they first started. Not only that it always seems those champions arent really looked into at all. I'm going to use talon as an example of this before the s3 changes talon was not really seeing any use rarely would I see him played in my games, ranked, my friends games, or tournaments. Then s3 the league of black cleavers came and he shot up in usage(which in a way you did bring up a good chunk of people to light so kudos on item switches) of course you guys had to look into him after that and you noticed certain move was not working as intended so for the longest time while the champ was not in usage this got through and nobody took a look at him to see a problem like that was happening because he was wasent on your priority list. I just think something like that being noticed earlier and fixing it maybe he could have seen some play but I guess thats mainly what ifs maybe he still wouldnt have been used.

I think thats just me rambling but in short if you actually look at champions people want to see even if its minority I think you could see more usage if you gave them little tweaks here and there. You even said it yourself you gave vayne 5 movement speed and she became great. Maybe if you showed some other champions a little love and gave a few bug fixes here and there and some minor buffs you could see the same with others.

I hope I get my point across I'm not really good at these kinda things.

3) You have been using irelia as an example this whole time stahp it. It scares me lol.

4) This is a personal gripe of mine but let the ad melee casters or fighters have some team fighting presence. You weaken their kits so they are only mediocre in both 1v1 and team fights while you leave people like khazix with stupid poke, damage, and get aways exist.


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Uroboros

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus567 View Post
That sounds like an Animal Farm quote.

Wait, wait. Is Morello a Communist?
No, it's not. Actually, that's pretty much the opposite of socialistic values, where everyone and everything is supposed to share a common value. Though Orwell pretty much jumped around that very idea with his book, he never stated it, nor did any character, even though that was a big basis for the book, showing how communism really does not work. The entire book was a derision on the communist system, as well. So Morello is most definitely not a communist.

Despite Chinese Overlords.


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Sessamo

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
And of course, I wouldn't expect any work on him to be done anytime soon (priority and all--Darius isn't even in that bad a spot, he's just frustrating to newer players and a bit risky to use in ranked due to being a bit more defined than a lot of other champs), but I do have to ask, have you thought about giving this treatment to any other champs yet? Or are none problematic enough to warrant this?

On the topic of the Heimerdinger rework you mentioned a while ago, I think it would be important to bring up this type of design as well--except instead of just pushing defined strengths and weaknesses (which are pretty vague on him right now--a lot of the counterplay to him lies in dodging his grenades and taking advantage of his squishiness and lack of escape mechanics when he overextends), making him more defined as a whole and doing some serious pruning.

Like you may have read from me before, I think one of the main things that would make Heimerdinger problematic to balance is not the fact that he is able to place turrets (most state that his turrets were what made him un-fun back in the day, but considering that they were only 20% of his kit, had unreliable aim, melted like butter, and weren't instantaneous in terms of damage, I'm a bit skeptical about this), and do some fairly significant poke damage on his own--in fact, I'd go as far as to say that he's more "poke" than "fortify," which is where the imbalance (through design) comes in.

I know this is kind of a risky thing to bring up and most likely won't end up being the case, but do you know if they'd consider removing the "poke" aspects of his kit (which don't necessarily fit on Heimerdinger--after all, wouldn't the prominence of hexplosives on Ziggs make Heim's dinky little rockets and 'nades seem a bit quaint and redundant?) for something a little more focused around that sort of Engineer fortification-type playstyle?

As long as he has those turrets, his hexplosives will never be allowed to be as satisfying as they can be, and as long as he has those hexplosives, his turrets will never be allowed to be as satisfying as they can be (like how giving Darius a ranged poke would end up making him weaker in melee range, or how currently, Sejuani will never be allowed to be as powerful as she can be up-close and personal because of the ranged nature of her ult). And even then--it would only make sense for his turrets, the sort of "signature" of Heim's kit, to take the spotlight over this wonky and inconsistent ranged poking ability, no?

I mean, I know that the old "hey let's just give him a skill shot on his turrets and then dump him full of more explosives" redesign will probably be closer to what happens than what I propose, but it's just a thought! I trust your collective judgment (and all the experience you guys have acquired over the years!), but I'm just a bit worried about the future of my little Inventor buddy...
Why not just remove his ability to murder structures if it's what is holding him back? It worked well enough for Zyra.