Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

First Riot Post
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Mishli

Senior Member

02-10-2013

I would like to apologize in advance if this feels long winded, I have a slight tendancy to rant, but i did my best to get my point across.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Mostly, these champions require more work overall to make to where you want them to be more viable. If Irelia is the benchmark of strong, anyone who has to have decision-points that are more prone to mistake or less reliable, then no champions except those with Irelia's reliability and powercurve can be used. A simple balance is not sufficient to solve the problem, and these things take time.

Now, remember we have other really subpar champions who have been weak for longer, or have art coming we can roll the gameplay into. What I'm saying is that game development is about prioritization, and while we agree these are problems, there are greater problems that will get attention first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ttsukasa View Post
Thank you for your timely reply. I would like to mention that poppy hasn't received any attention in 2.5 years and is currently ranked in a worst position than both hiemerdinger and karma (according to several stats tracking websites as of S3 she has maintained last place in key factors: win rate,kill/death/assist rate, and popularity (1‰)). She has been within the bottom 7 for all of those for quiet awhile (a year now I think).

Are you stating that because her project would be more difficult you are putting her off or is there another reason that other, more well off /viable champions would be ahead of her?

While I understand the need to fix based on what you just said. Could I plead a band-aid buff for poppy to tide over the fan base while we wait for our spotlight. Something to make her a bit more marble until you are ready to actually focus on her (like better mana usage, or increased armor/speed on w to account for S3 changes to armor efficiency and nerf to general speed items.
Personally, I completly agree with ttsukasa. Though many people have spoken extensively about irelia, you do have a point that this is the first time she hasn't been one of the most competetive picks. The fact that a champion might not be THE BEST for a while is an understandable thing, but as you just said, this is the first time she's never been the best pick. On the contrary, i don't know of a time when poppy was ever considered a GOOD pick, much less the best. (i'm sorry, i didn't play season 1 when she was released, so i can't speak for that) Irelia has been modified again and again, patch after patch, on the flip side, besides 1: her q now hits wards, and 2: her paragon passive buff now shows the number of stacks active. Poppy has hardly been heard from in over a year. she has not recieved a stat change in over 2.5 years, since season 1. Since then almost every item has been tweaked, by general consensus, most of the items that work best for her have been nerfed, and while many other champs had other options to fall back on, poppy is heavily reliant on her items, and was hit worse than most. 2 seasons have come and gone, and while every item she needs has changed (usually for the worse in her case), she has not been touched.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3103612

This is a post also made by ttsukasa, linking to several threads painstakingly made by avid poppy fans of possible ideas, tweaks and changes that we think would go a great way into helping poppy. No one is expecting you to make every single change we suggest, but even 1 or 2 of them could make a world of difference. It's completely understandable that changing a champ takes time and thought, but your community has done an extensive amount of that for you. one of the posts he links, by me, took over 5 hours to put together because instead of just "why is my favorite champion not op" i did my best to do research and gather lots of information and examples to demonstrate how she has fallen severely behind many other champions.

Do we claim to be perfect? Do we claim to know exactly what is needed? no we don't, but seeing as we have hundreds of games of experience with our favorite champion to speak of, at the very least i hope you would consider our input worth considering. It's been long stated that a heimerdinger and karma rework was in the works, and finally, with the last patch, you handed out a little teaser of heimer's turrets now joining in on his auto attacks, already i've seen several friends who like to play heimer bringing him back out and enjoying the change, even though it was such a small thing, already they feel much better that at least something has been done. Poppy has been one of the least used and frankly considered one of the worst champions, even since i can remember. Specifically, the first game after i bought her over a year ago, someone queue dodge at the sight of me locking her in. and that still happens to this day. We aren't asking for you to completely remake her overnight. we understand that these things take time. but at the very least, do you think you could throw us a bone in acknowledgment of our efforts and the fact that our favorite champion is so hated that people will refuse to play at the sight of her? rather volunteering to wait, sometimes upwards of 30 min, just because they loathe playing alongside her? Again, as ttsukasa said, poppy is considered, generally speaking, one of the worst champs in the game. in season 2 i knew plenty of people who would rather play alongside the nerfed evelynn than play with a poppy. "at least eve can scout well, poppy can't even do that". We, the fans who spent hours coming up with ideas and theories to try and find ways to make her better, disagree, but it's a crushing thing to hear that a mobile ward is worth more than your favorite champion. Is it possible that you might have some spare time to at least consider our ideas, or, as ttsukasa said again, 'give us a band aid' of sorts that at least lets us know you haven't forgotten about her or buried her?

As ralik said earlier, the fact that we are getting ridiculed and blatantly insulted, simply for playing a champion we love, is extremely painful for us to be told. Is over 2 years not long enough for you, or must we bear this for longer?


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Thunderstud

Member

02-10-2013

Diablo 3 is the biggest video game letdown i've ever had.


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Mortaljason

Junior Member

02-10-2013

Starcraft 2 failed me. It didn't bring back it's community, had tons of IMBA **** in it, and brought a ton of pros to LoL


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-10-2013
81 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralik098 View Post
I am not concerned with you not liking a specific champion and I am not speaking about a specific champion. I am talking in general. I am concerned that you basically just endorsed giving champions the "eve treatment". Nerfing them into non-existence and then leaving them to rot because you don't like the way that you play. This is unacceptable under any circumstance. Didn't you learn your lesson from Eve and Xin? This sort of thing pisses people off more than anything else you can possibly do. If champions are in a bad state then they need to be fixed IMMEDIATELY. OP champions can be dealt with through bans or counterpicking, there is literally nothing you can do to make a trash tier champion feel fun. Not only that, but it draws ridicule from your teammates simply for selecting them. I don't think you understand just how much people are affected by having their champions feel worthless. IMO there is literally nothing worse in this game than that.

Sorry for being rude earlier, but this is the issue that I feel the strongest about with this game. Seeing you say that you didn't think it was important upset me quite a bit. Each champion should have some place within the game and if you have no intentions of allowing a champion to be in a good spot in their current condition then you need to make it your top priority to fix them. There is no greater problem within the game than this because the affect of it isn't matched by any other problem. Allowing a champion to rot for months and months is unacceptable. Again, I urge you to reconsider your position on this.

In case you need a reminder: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1877862
You misunderstand a few things here;

1) Eve is the only champion we've ever intentionally overnerfed. No other examples are intentional overnerfs.

2) "Trash tier" is really subjective and in many cases the product of bandwagoning an opinion (Ezreal). Irelia is absolutely not trash tier - Poppy's more valid. In this case, your definition of "trash tier" is "not good in most lineups." See my earlier posts on this. There are only a small handful (~5-10 max) of champions who could earnestly be considered in this.

3) Based on the previous two, you're assigning a lot of intent to this. We're already working hard on several champions like Karma and Heimerdinger, and yes, they are more important. If we could do them all at the same time, then sure we would - but that's not how things actually work. But dropping everything and fixing any champion the community has agreed is bad is not the most important thing we could do. Yes, doing them faster is important (and hence why you're seeing more this year, and why we made a rework team just to deal with this) but the zeal you're using here does not equate to the actual importance of "a few champions aren't as good as others."

And what of the tradeoffs? What happens when Irelia is healthy for the game - do players actually get mad that she's viable but not the same character? How many more fighters like this do we need to get through to make it so top lane isn't a cesspool (a bigger problem than "Irelia's not as good as X").

This needs to be done, we agree there, but it's not as important as other things. If everything's equally important, then nothing has importance.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-10-2013
82 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishli View Post
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This is why we have to prioritize the older ones first - Poppy's a really valid critique in this area.

As to why, I just think no one has taken it on yet. We've grown the live team from a team of 3 people (Guinsoo, Shurelia and Classick) to a big team capable of doing more than just balance for the first time in Riot's history - that's good news. Things like Season 3, Stealth actually getting done (!) and more higher-scope changes are already things we could accomplish, and Champion reworks are on the menu coming up. Some of the problems, like top lane issues, require it in fact.

There does remain, though, that some champions need heavy under-the-hood work to be fixed. Buffing a champion that does bad things to the game (and lessens the strategic interest/game health/experience for all people not playing that champion) is not worth making a top pick until these things are fixed. And remember, for most of us, nearly every champion is perfectly viable to play.

The perception spoken of "ridiculed for playing X" will not stop via balance, or game design. There will always be the impression of a weakest, a set of black sheep champions. We even sometimes do buffs just to change perception. +5 movement speed to Vayne is a small, small buff for a character with the level of move-blocking she does, but got her from "trash tier" to "great!"

That doesn't mean the balance issues shouldn't be worked on, but remember this is all relative and perspective.


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Ralik098

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You misunderstand a few things here;

1) Eve is the only champion we've ever intentionally overnerfed. No other examples are intentional overnerfs.
Xin wasn't intentional? Still I stand by what I said earlier, it isn't acceptable to treat champions this way.

Edit- Rengar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

2) "Trash tier" is really subjective and in many cases the product of bandwagoning an opinion (Ezreal). Irelia is absolutely not trash tier - Poppy's more valid. In this case, your definition of "trash tier" is "not good in most lineups." See my earlier posts on this. There are only a small handful (~5-10 max) of champions who could earnestly be considered in this.
Of course, so let's define it. To me it means a champion that is in a position in which there is no real reason for you to play them. Either they are just plain bad and don't fit into the game or others do their job better than they do. All I'm saying is that when a champion reaches this point then it should be your top priority to look at them, either for buffs or reworks. Whichever it takes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

3) Based on the previous two, you're assigning a lot of intent to this. We're already working hard on several champions like Karma and Heimerdinger, and yes, they are more important. If we could do them all at the same time, then sure we would - but that's not how things actually work. But dropping everything and fixing any champion the community has agreed is bad is not the most important thing we could do. Yes, doing them faster is important (and hence why you're seeing more this year, and why we made a rework team just to deal with this) but the zeal you're using here does not equate to the actual importance of "a few champions aren't as good as others."
Good to hear these champions are getting some work, Sejuani is also right? Is anyone else being looked at?

This is where we disagree. Like I said, there is nothing you can do to make a bad champion fun to play. I guess you may disagree with this, but you have ever been on the other side of it. As a player there is nothing that upsets me more then when a champion that I love to play is in a bad state. Plus the fact that you all are usually so tight lipped on the state of balance and what you intend to do for specific champions is frustrating to deal with as a player. Champion balance should be your top priority.

While you seem to be in a mood to talk specifics, do you have anything planned for Shyvana, I know there are tons of people who would say that she is indeed trash tier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
And what of the tradeoffs? What happens when Irelia is healthy for the game - do players actually get mad that she's viable but not the same character? How many more fighters like this do we need to get through to make it so top lane isn't a cesspool (a bigger problem than "Irelia's not as good as X").

This needs to be done, we agree there, but it's not as important as other things. If everything's equally important, then nothing has importance.
I have no doubt that if Irelia is reworked people will complain, but they complain about EVERY rework. Like I said earlier though, if you have no intentions of letting a champion be in a good in their current state, then I would like to see you make them your top priority to fix them (Poppy?). I would be far more upset if you intended to leave a champion in a bad state than actually giving them some attention so that they can see some play. If that means a rework then so be it. If you have to rework Irelia to get you to stop hating on her all the time then do it. But don't let champions sit and rot for such a long time, I think it upsets people more than a rework does as you saw with Eve. As long as you can keep a champions playstyle intact in a rework then you shouldn't fear doing it.

Top lane has always and will always have problems because of the combination of the way you design champions and the shape of the map. Back before the sustain nerfs it was obviously passive and a farm lane, sure some might say it was boring, but at least if you made a mistake you could farm. It was far better (imo) than what we currently have where a single mistake will snowball the lane so hard that you are out of the game. So do you want a passive lane, or do you want an insanely snowbally lane? Because I really don't see how it will ever be any other way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I pretty much only play pure tanks and mid, I actually really don't like playing Fighters.
Plus, I just want to say that your obvious bias against fighters is laughable, Hashinshin was actually right about that. You can deny it all you want, but you just said they are turning the game into a cesspool. Why do you think it has become a running joke on the forums? Sorry that you don't find them fun, but many others do. Please stop letting your biases bleed over into the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

This is the first time, pretty much ever, that Irelia's not been a top competitive pick.
Completely false.

You say that there are other more important things? I disagree, the champions are the core of this game and I care about them above other issues. For example, Xypherous stated that he stopped working on Heimer to work on the items. While the items affect more people the strength of that affect is nowhere near as strong. People care about the champions, not the items. People only care what effect the items have on their champions, either what sort of boost in power they get when they buy them or what effect they have in playing against them.

To clarify, I guess what I'm saying is that these old champions that people have already grown to like should take priority over things that are not even in the game. We shouldn't have to wait for champions to reach the point of Karma and Heimer for them to see some changes. If my favorites ever reach this point, I will certainly not sit around and wait while you all plod through other reworks at glacial speed. Its easier just to move on to other games. Again, champion balance whether it is nerfs/buffs/reworks should take priority over... whatever else it is that live balance people work on.

Thanks for the responses and taking the time to read all this though, I appreciate it. Sorry for grilling you on this, but this issue bothers me more than anything in the game and again, to hear you say that you don't think it is as important as other issues was... upsetting. I have no idea why you could possibly be working on that is more important than ensuring current content remains relevant and fun, there isn't anything imo.


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Uroboros

Senior Member

02-10-2013

I'm surprised Irelia's mentioned at all. I know the running gag around here is Morello hates Irelia, but she's not in a really terrible spot as far as balance goes. Her biggest problem these days is farming, and I'd have to say she fared a lot better in that respect than a certain top lane yordle. Her kit is at least decent for last hitting - hell, she even has a reset for a dash if she kills something.

As much as I love Poppy, she's much too good late game (unkillable destruction machine) and completely useless early (squishy and easy to push out). Her kit is in definite need of tweaking, whereas Irelia has at least a decent early game, and a strong, but not impossibly good, late. Considering the current state of the game is all about early dominance, Poppy just can't compete at all. I like to see that she's on the minds of the developers, though.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
That's one way to go about it, absolutely. I do think the lack of direct interaction points is the issue to solve here.
And of course, I wouldn't expect any work on him to be done anytime soon (priority and all--Darius isn't even in that bad a spot, he's just frustrating to newer players and a bit risky to use in ranked due to being a bit more defined than a lot of other champs), but I do have to ask, have you thought about giving this treatment to any other champs yet? Or are none problematic enough to warrant this?

On the topic of the Heimerdinger rework you mentioned a while ago, I think it would be important to bring up this type of design as well--except instead of just pushing defined strengths and weaknesses (which are pretty vague on him right now--a lot of the counterplay to him lies in dodging his grenades and taking advantage of his squishiness and lack of escape mechanics when he overextends), making him more defined as a whole and doing some serious pruning.

Like you may have read from me before, I think one of the main things that would make Heimerdinger problematic to balance is not the fact that he is able to place turrets (most state that his turrets were what made him un-fun back in the day, but considering that they were only 20% of his kit, had unreliable aim, melted like butter, and weren't instantaneous in terms of damage, I'm a bit skeptical about this), and do some fairly significant poke damage on his own--in fact, I'd go as far as to say that he's more "poke" than "fortify," which is where the imbalance (through design) comes in.

I know this is kind of a risky thing to bring up and most likely won't end up being the case, but do you know if they'd consider removing the "poke" aspects of his kit (which don't necessarily fit on Heimerdinger--after all, wouldn't the prominence of hexplosives on Ziggs make Heim's dinky little rockets and 'nades seem a bit quaint and redundant?) for something a little more focused around that sort of Engineer fortification-type playstyle?

As long as he has those turrets, his hexplosives will never be allowed to be as satisfying as they can be, and as long as he has those hexplosives, his turrets will never be allowed to be as satisfying as they can be (like how giving Darius a ranged poke would end up making him weaker in melee range, or how currently, Sejuani will never be allowed to be as powerful as she can be up-close and personal because of the ranged nature of her ult). And even then--it would only make sense for his turrets, the sort of "signature" of Heim's kit, to take the spotlight over this wonky and inconsistent ranged poking ability, no?

I mean, I know that the old "hey let's just give him a skill shot on his turrets and then dump him full of more explosives" redesign will probably be closer to what happens than what I propose, but it's just a thought! I trust your collective judgment (and all the experience you guys have acquired over the years!), but I'm just a bit worried about the future of my little Inventor buddy...


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KH Roxas

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Heh, there's a lot of this, but that's understandale

I actually think both of these characters have core fundamental problems that keep us from wanting to be good. Poppy's design is, for lack of a better word, oppressive, and there's just nearly no gameplay to focus on in the current Irelia kit.

Either way though, is this the most important thing to fix in all the things to fix? My thought is not even close.
wow


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Pureva

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Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Agreed - his thematic cohesion is great.
Thematic cohesion has always been the difference for me between liking and loving a champion. Storm Spirit in DotA Allstars had it, and so do, for example, Elise and Rengar.