Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

First Riot Post
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Tegakari

Senior Member

02-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yma Sumac View Post
You didn't remove it because you wanted to cater to noobs. "Noobs" would love this interaction because it would give them an experience to love and learn from. The most "casual" of people in every game I have played. Wc3, CSS, WoW even, they LOVE interactions like this, they no longer identify themselves as casual as they start dedicating themselves to understand and learn more about the game.

you removed it because you believe it would/could be used for trolling or give "unfair" advantages. You justified it with your own merits of game design, which apparently from older posts you have stated "We don't care if it's boring, as long as it is solid gameplay"

"What's the point of even having Thresh' lantern, why not just give him a herp derp shield Armor/MR gap closer?" You don't do this because you at least have learned from the past few years that no one likes this at all. At least you tried with this lantern, but you have the wrong ideas on how to implement such mechanics.

and it's not just this specific case. The point is that your design team does not have the proper attitude towards creativity and innovative based plays when you perceive things like this to be bugs. It's pathetic because you put your own limits on the player due to claims of it being poor game design. I'm sure many people were just as pissed when you removed ward jumping, once again as a result of your flawless design principles.

Nothing about this interaction is "broken" it requires teamwork, it requires mechanical skill. It is not a guaranteed victory. Broken would be someone comboing to pull an enemy towards your fountain

" it requires mechanical skill."

Very little skill was required for that combo. Very, very little. It was way too game-changing for a combo that was so incredibly easy to pull off.


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Yma Sumac

Member

02-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cha0sniper View Post
That's not mechanical depth or interaction, it's raw power. You always have to assume the most abusive case when balancing, because the players will always strive to find the most powerful option available to them. If you don't cut off abusive edge cases as soon as you find them, then they become the only things players use, and THAT is true imbalance.
The interaction is never explicitly stated to happen in the context of the abilities

it is the result of two players being creative with the knowledge of what these abilities do to achieve a powerful result

I am not "Pressing R to do something"

I actually have to think

and really you people have the most limited viewpoints on game design. Interactions like this are "abusive".

HoN devs encourage mechanics like these.

Even WoW and SWoTR raids have started to encourage things like these, and MMOs are barely games as they are social amusement parks, far more "casual" than League or DoTA yet so much more depth


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Zarpal

Junior Member

02-09-2013

Fix the server RIOT PLEASE


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Yma Sumac

Member

02-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegakari View Post
" it requires mechanical skill."

Very little skill was required for that combo. Very, very little. It was way too game-changing for a combo that was so incredibly easy to pull off.

What are the chances that the blitzcrank and thresh are perfectly positioned to pull that off. What are the chances of a smooth hook that is in relative range to the lantern. You saw that blitzcrank having to reposition after he hooked

As for game changing

I don't see blitzcrank + thresh in the same team in any game. Do you?


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Tegakari

Senior Member

02-09-2013

mfw blitz and mechanical depth used in the same sentence. let's not discuss blitz here, please. blitz is not and will never be balanced. it can't be done, and it's because of its design. riot will continue to make him weaker, to the point that he will be nothing more than a pull. and then, finally, he will leave the banned mainstays, but it will never be balanced. it's just too game-changing and nothing can be done about it. riot is in denial about blitz, and I forget who it was but they even admitted he was unbalanceable yet denied it in the same riot post, then ignored all replies about his self-contradiction.


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Tegakari

Senior Member

02-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yma Sumac View Post
What are the chances that the blitzcrank and thresh are perfectly positioned to pull that off. What are the chances of a smooth hook that is in relative range to the lantern. You saw that blitzcrank having to reposition after he hooked

As for game changing

I don't see blitzcrank + thresh in the same team in any game. Do you?

They don't have to be perfectly positioned to pull off a combo of slightly less effectiveness, like into a bush but not into the tower as was depicted.

Of course you don't see them in the same team, both are often banned and rightly so. Anything else?


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Vladeous

Senior Member

02-09-2013

hey morello are you guys going to do anything about the dead items like atma's and spirit stone?


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9Point

Senior Member

02-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So pathetic things like "game design." Got it.

All interactions are not desirable. How much do we have to nerf Tresh and Blitz because of this single interaction if we leave it in? Should one edge case determine the balance of two characters - one of which has tons of new strategic things opened up due to his existence?

This is agenda-speak. "If you remove any edge cases, it's because you're for noobs/casuals/bads etc" That's a shallow interpretation of this.
speaking of game design, what up with worthless ap ratios?

Is "game design" putting a ap ratio on sivr's Q? on paths W and R?
Go play ap sivir, go play ap panth, ap Xin and talk about game design issues.


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Trumanator

Senior Member

02-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9Point View Post
speaking of game design, what up with worthless ap ratios?

Is "game design" putting a ap ratio on sivr's Q? on paths W and R?
Go play ap sivir, go play ap panth, ap Xin and talk about game design issues.
AP pan/siv/xin aren't intended to be viable.... Those ratios are only there so you can get a little boost out of any AP you happen to pick up through baron/WOTA/etc.


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Yma Sumac

Member

02-09-2013

you know morello that is truly the only reason why I see Dota beating League in the competitive scene. I currently play both games and enjoy both in their own merit, however the actual difference is:

not because of art style
not because of graphics
not because of power placement, abilities, or even the most basic forms of gameplay
not because "balance" or "Design philosophy"

the only reason is that DoTA mechanics are far more malleable and interesting. Argue that "it's abusive, unintended, gimmicky" all you want, but nothing is far more entertaining than to see a chinese guy do something you have never seen before in a game. In most cases they are not gimmicks, but there is an actual reason to do them.

DoTA tournaments will be exciting, chaotic, and unpredictable, with infinite potential. The battlecasters themselves sometimes wonder "how did he do that?" (think Boxxer slayer's allied mines)

League tournaments will be right click slugfests, last second flashes, "I can aim skillshots", and the audience gets worked up over Nocturne spell shielding an Ashe Arrow

Of course it doesn't have to be that way, Gragas in dreamhack was exciting to watch. Lee sin in season 2 was exciting to watch. I do hope I will see Thresh in Season 3 Championships. Some champions are mechanically rigid by design, though some others are very flexible. There isn't a feasible way to make more interesting heroes without addressing mechanical power creep, unless you want to rework all your older ones. What you could do is creative active items with more utility based effects that have room for creative uses.