Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

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JonnyTapas

Member

02-06-2013

I'm sure everyone is aware of the complete and total Final Fantasy XIV failure upon launch. Over 2 years they tweaked and modified and in a sense beta tested their ideas for the "A Realm Reborn" scheduled to launch some time this year.

Unfortunately by the end of version 1.0 they began giving the game away. I remember my first month grinding to level 20 before I dared venturing out to find a new city, and upon finding a new city made some friends interested in grinding to the level cap 50 on a static daily basis. It took us an entire month to do so, and this was 1 job of the 7 battle classes possible...

In a nutshell if you went at it hard enough you could cap the battle classes in 6 to 7 months... Your average casual gamer of 4 hours a day would have taken a couple years to do so... This doesn't even touch on crafting.

By the end of version 1.0 after 2 years of play I had everything capped and everything achieved more or less. Unfortunately the idea of a version 2.0 attracted quite a bit of players, and they just gave exp and rewards away. You could grind a job 1 - 50 in 2 days easily capping all jobs casually inside of a month.

The mount was a blessing when they were released, walking every was very tedious and the world was absolutely huge! You had to get level 25 (back in the days of the long grind) and do quite a lot of major quests to get this mount. No slack job for sure.

Then special reward we're adding a new special mount that will only be availble to players who played during 1.0... How do you get this mount? Talk to 1 person. No quest... no kill something... don't even spend your gold... here ya go have this glorius special mount for pressing enter twice!

All of the enemies that used to take armies of friends to kill ( or die over and over again, raids weren't always successful) are now soloable. Here's the thing... the level cap never changed... The just plain buffed players and nerfed the environment over time to where you just walked up to everything in kill it.

I can honestly say by the end of version 1.0 days... you had 2 types of players... You had the 2-3 year veterans that have played since beta or release, and you had the crowd that jumped on board around the 2.0 "A Realm Reborn" hype just a few months ago. The problem is all of us now have the game 95% complete or better. What exactly was the reward for "being a huge fan" through the trials of a broken game since it's launch date?

You are correct though all games tend to do this... What took you a year now take a new player a week... It's common.

Everytime I want to whine about IP or grinding to 30 here... I bite my tongue and enjoy it before they make it easier! I hope not!


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PG Bob Chen

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02-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye Zero View Post
All it took was Burning Crusade (Second Expansion of WoW) to wreck the game for a lot of users. WOTLK was personally what was the last straw for me.[/B]
Umm you do realize that the majority of WoW players consider BC the best expansion right?


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PG Bob Chen

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02-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's a tricky topic, because our job is to make decisions based on what players not only want, but need. Let me explain that a bit.

Determining what players want is actually pretty simple - your most invested users tend to be very vocal and will put effort into making sure they're heard (ie; most forumers!) This is a good metric of understanding what players want, at least for high-engagement folks.

What players need is where players don't proclaim a desire for something, but it helps provide something they say they want. Many times, this is more than a single solution - it requires several steps of implementation to reach a result, or takes time to bake in many cases. Let me provide two example of want vs need, and why want cannot be the only driver for developers;

At Riot, we nerf champions. Nerfs are rarely wanted (and many times, unwanted). But, players want to have a fair experience with a variety of options. Additionally, a game without power caps and heavy power creep (something still happening faster than I'd like...) can disrupt the core game design focused around choices, decision-making, and strategy. To accomplish this, we need to nerf champions, even if players don't explicitly want us to.

To use your example, in the pattern of Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King, the changes to easier raid content and more accessibility is actually informed by a want that a lot of players expressed - IE, raids were content that was exclusive from them and they wanted a piece. I respect the guys who make WoW (and its success is a testament), but this is a good example of where the developers should have recognized the core need of exclusivity and the right tuning of that, and steered away from players said they wanted. Personally, I think Burning Crusade is a sweet spot.

The above is a fantastic example of why we have to make tough choices and not always just do what players ask us to do - it's not always the right course of action.

The problem you're speaking to, in my opinion, is when developers think they always have that answer and that being a developer gives you divination into what that is. In my mind, game development isn't about having answers - it's the ways in which you find them.

Our interaction on here isn't just lip-service, it's so we can better optimize decisions around player wants - and explain what players need when they don't want it. This informs us a lot, but we make decisions based on a number of factors - player desires and feedback being one of them.

I hope this helps explain how I feel about this, and how the developer/player interaction looks to me.
I NEED you to fix brutalizer or Garen. 1 or the other please preferably brutalizer.


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Purgation

Senior Member

02-06-2013

A further thought.

Right now, LoL is doing great, and I think it will probably do well for a good while longer, but I think you can see on the forums signs of where the problems will be.

People talk about ELO hell, and at some level it doesn't really matter much if you think its real or not --the fact is the gaming experience for the bottom 1/4 or so is pretty painful.. The reality is, after people sink for a while, most of them just leave or quit. For now this has been ok, because so many new players are flooding in. When that stops, the game will begin to erode from the bottom. When it does, it will be the people in Silver today who are constantly playing with the worst of the worst, I'm guessing your enjoyment of the game will start to suffer.


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TheCøøkieMonster

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyTapas View Post
I'm sure everyone is aware of the complete and total Final Fantasy XIV failure upon launch. Over 2 years they tweaked and modified and in a sense beta tested their ideas for the "A Realm Reborn" scheduled to launch some time this year.

Unfortunately by the end of version 1.0 they began giving the game away. I remember my first month grinding to level 20 before I dared venturing out to find a new city, and upon finding a new city made some friends interested in grinding to the level cap 50 on a static daily basis. It took us an entire month to do so, and this was 1 job of the 7 battle classes possible...

In a nutshell if you went at it hard enough you could cap the battle classes in 6 to 7 months... Your average casual gamer of 4 hours a day would have taken a couple years to do so... This doesn't even touch on crafting.

By the end of version 1.0 after 2 years of play I had everything capped and everything achieved more or less. Unfortunately the idea of a version 2.0 attracted quite a bit of players, and they just gave exp and rewards away. You could grind a job 1 - 50 in 2 days easily capping all jobs casually inside of a month.

The mount was a blessing when they were released, walking every was very tedious and the world was absolutely huge! You had to get level 25 (back in the days of the long grind) and do quite a lot of major quests to get this mount. No slack job for sure.

Then special reward we're adding a new special mount that will only be availble to players who played during 1.0... How do you get this mount? Talk to 1 person. No quest... no kill something... don't even spend your gold... here ya go have this glorius special mount for pressing enter twice!

All of the enemies that used to take armies of friends to kill ( or die over and over again, raids weren't always successful) are now soloable. Here's the thing... the level cap never changed... The just plain buffed players and nerfed the environment over time to where you just walked up to everything in kill it.

I can honestly say by the end of version 1.0 days... you had 2 types of players... You had the 2-3 year veterans that have played since beta or release, and you had the crowd that jumped on board around the 2.0 "A Realm Reborn" hype just a few months ago. The problem is all of us now have the game 95% complete or better. What exactly was the reward for "being a huge fan" through the trials of a broken game since it's launch date?

You are correct though all games tend to do this... What took you a year now take a new player a week... It's common.

Everytime I want to whine about IP or grinding to 30 here... I bite my tongue and enjoy it before they make it easier! I hope not!

Been there, played that and if you look back to FFXI you see the same BS.

Early PC release was a mess....6 months later PS2 came and the game was easier....each expansion became easier...I loved that game to death and poured 4.5 years of life into it as a hardcore player, maats cap and all before treasures....relic DRG weapon...yes they wasted it on me but I worked my tail off leading a linkshell twice a week in Dynamis...

In the end...the game was dumbed down and if I went back now I could start a new account and have all capped toons in about 2 months....dynamis is so easy now you take 6 men in....where as it used to take an army of us and planning and wipeing, learning and winning....even AV is simple....

I miss the days of 6-12 hour fights with multiple groups and linkshells working together or trying to train mobs and wipe you.... the drama and the challenge was intense.


-=----------------

This game is so stupid now this season, that I dropped down to check out and stream elo hell for cash to prove riot lies about it being not real...

Its real and the sad thing is there are some good players, but their attitudes cost them the game and the trolls are out of control.

Punishing legit players and making things too easy is idiotic....

I blame Riot for selling out to chinese mass marketing to rip the game, make a quick buck and dump it....

Sad panda


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TheCøøkieMonster

Senior Member

02-06-2013

WOW, Aion, ROM, WAR, ... Any mmo in the last 15 years....

I have played it to end game on all toons....

All dev's ...even rifts who are the best.....ruin their game by not properly running ingame surveys

-----------------

In game survey is the safe way to run a business....online....

Ask everyone about possible changes....make change then ask how they like it.... if majority dislike....revert or fix it by comments....give another survey about the change...rinse repeat and BE INVOLVED IN YOUR OWN GAME

Above all else...

LISTEN TO THE COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE.... not just the upper 5%


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TheCøøkieMonster

Senior Member

02-06-2013

BTW... Yes Im a loser but a great single parent as well as a work from home business man

I have over 4000 games played on my accounts... and I am one who can speak on any area of the game and read forums.


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TheCøøkieMonster

Senior Member

02-06-2013

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3007733


VOTE KICK PREGAME POLL


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IkeBakemono

Junior Member

02-06-2013

[QUOTE=Morello;34284673] Personally, I think Burning Crusade is a sweet spot. "

Yes... yes it really was. The only expansion to a game that I actually enjoyed.


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Frost Archer

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Halo. Big time. Ever since Bungie handed the reins to 343, it's been rolling downhill