Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

First Riot Post
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RadiantSkieZz

Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by And it was K View Post
I think the heroic raids were actually top notch too. Especially Ulduar and ICC. What killed Wrath for me was everything other than raiding. They destroyed server communities, the life and sense of adventure in the overworld, small group content, and the PvP was bad.
WoW has never had good pvp honestly. I've always had to play DotA and now LoL when i wanted some real pvp. All wow's good for is raiding (Before they nerf the raid into the ground.)
I mean what was DS at by the end? -45% dmg from everything in that raid. you could 6-7 man it no problem.


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Robert De Nunu

Senior Member

02-05-2013

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Originally Posted by The Fatalii View Post
The new final fantasy games. Everything after ff10 just blows. No free world map and ****
Everything before ff10 kinda blew too. And you're suprised?


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iam PYR0

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Morello why the shaco nerf....? I heard what the rioters said about him... he is getting to the point old eve was at...

Shaco has one position... Jungle I can't really think of any other champion that can only play one role... Yes I remember a long time ago He would hyper carry early game and be a problem late also... But when I look at other champions with similar play styles example lee sin Khazix Rengar or pretty much any other jumping jungler most of which can gank early and kill 3 times as fast as shaco can. The reason I am saying this is I can have pure Ad runes or pure pen runes with shaco and pure offensive masteries and gank the squishiest champ right now at lv two and only take like one bar with my deceive. Shaco was designed similar to the champs I mention in that his job was to shut down hyper carries example. Karthus vayne. he used to be able to take half your health with just decieve yes i can see that being op, but how does that go down to one bar? now you nerfed the range on his jump so now you cant even really deceive from beyond the bush allowing you to sneak up on enemy lanes because of his poof of smoke. Also his boxes don't mix well with his kit..
Suggestion make his boxes pop instantly if laid down in the proximity of enemy champions would provide him the needed cc he needs for ganking lanes without increasing any damage. Change his ult back to being controlled with ALT, the reason I ask this is because due to finger placement controlling your ulty becomes a nuisance more than a helpful tactic do to the fact you cant use your other three spells while controlling it; one finger will be off one of your other spells causing you to mess up. The reason this is so annoying is yes shaco has a free flash but the truth is flash in my opinion should be unique to champion abilities its to strong not to be. the reason this is very obvious is if 10 people in almost 95% of every game take flash does it not seem that its over powered?

Please fix shaco the riot staff themselves said they wanted to make champions so each of us would have several champions they could fall in love with and fit them. shaco is one of them for me and as someone who has spend i think if I would to guess at least 2 grand if not more on your content I would like to think i mean something to you at the very least please here me out. Their are so many more op champions but you nerfed shaco...


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AORainmaka

Member

02-05-2013

I personally think that riot has created some OP champions to force players to create more interesting ways of coping. With shaco, it seemed fairly simple to place extra wards out and just play a little bit more careful. In some ways it seems like a complicated chess match. For example, a powerful OP champ could still suck with a bad player and if people are able to bait them in and use strategic maneuvering to force them into a situation that is harmful to them. Then it comes down more to strategic mind than powerful items. Which I believe is what Riot is aiming for making a little bit stronger, so that powerful items doesn't end the game.

Also I think WoW has come to the point where if you spend massive amounts of time into getting items you can rip people apart every time. Whereas in this game even pros can be made human with a bad game, which can lead to not being built the way they wanted.

That's why I enjoy LoL. The difference from game to game is simple, and yet so much greater than other games. I'm constantly being surprised by a new move.


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Mogs01gt

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Good overall post but the balancing team still feels like they read the guild wars manual on how to make a great game become stale....


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exe3

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Morello in regards to remakes and trying to design around current expectations have you considered engaging the community more over what you're doing with remakes? Xin and Viktor started off with Solcrushed asking what players felt needed work and what they didn't want changed and afaik that helped give Xin a good remake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
BTW, this happened a lot with DotA players with League when we launched. Denying and fog-juking "made MOBA", but I think it's pretty clear that's not true :P
Even today I hear Dota players saying League has no skill or depth because of no denying. Makes my head hurt.

I look forward to the day last-hitting also gets replaced, sadly all the other devs seem to be copy/pasting LoL rather than thinking of their own things. Blizzard All-Stars I was hopeful for but they may have sabotaged themselves with what appears to be a cripplingly oversimplified items selection.


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Purgation

Senior Member

02-05-2013

What an interesting thread, I wish I had read it sooner.

Blizzard is very, very good at understanding their player base - - which historically has and to an extent still does include many different segments of player -- and being able to deliver an integrated experience that is satisfying to various different player bases.

I have to personally say the game that disappointed me the most was World of Warhammer. Let me be clear, this was an exceptionally innovative game, and even now, several years later nothing has come close. Many of my friends and I still talk about how we miss the game and how sad it is that it failed so badly.

Yet, it did fail badly. The main problem - - one with Riot can be thankful MOBAs don't have - - is dealing with end game progression and content. The Warhammer team - - shall we say -- didn't really think it through. Worse, when they made some major attempts to fix it, they ended up replacing one set of problems with a new set of equally bad problems - - the game population started to crash, and the death spiral ensued.

Wise players will understand what they really want is a game that is fun and entertains them - - and different players value and are entertained by different things. The challenge of being a game developer is that players know this, but they don't always know what they will find fun, and/or they don't always think through the implications of the things they think they want.

Oh one more thing - for me personally - where are the problems in LoL? I think again it's the sense of mastery and progression. I've played a lot of LoL. I'm a lot better than I was when I started... and yet here I am in the Bronze basement!!! lol. At some point I suppose I will decide that despite being way better than I was, I'm just fundamentally not good (or even average) for some reason I just don't understand -- and at that point why keep trying.

There is your risk to LoL right there. How happy would the Silver players you have today be if there were no Bronze players and they were the worst of the pack (at their current skill level). How impossibly inaccessible would that make the game for any kind of new player?

What the Silver players today "need" but don't know they need are players who are worse than them but actually willing to keep trying...


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireside Poet View Post
Another example I can give you is Super Smash Brothers-- I actually played in the competitive scene of SSB for quite some time, and experienced the bridging from Melee to Brawl. There was much crying and gnashing of teeth at the demise of "wave dashing" and "true combos"-- those combos that, if performed correctly, resulted in instant death. While a few hardcore players refused to budge from their "more competitive" SSBM, a HUGE majority of players adapted to the new SSBB, and I would bet that the upcoming SSB will have just as dedicated a following.

lastly, I think it's a little bit condescending to assume that game companies DON'T know what we want. They spend hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of dollars to LEARN what we want. The problem is that sometimes what the general public wants isn't what is best (see: Tragedy of the Commons, Paradox of Value, etc). And unless you have a vision for your "art" (be it TV, games, books, or anything) it can get lost in pandering to the lowest common denominator.
You seriously misunderstand why people prefered (and still do) melee to brawl. The true comboes didn't guarantee death do to DI and wavedashing was just a single element of melee that contributed to a much more fluid game with more options. Also you don't seem to know that a TON of Brawl players were quite displeased with Brawl throughout the entire time that I played it. Everyone complained about heavy camping and people did drop Brawl because of its overly defensive play. Smash's competitive scene will forever have a cap, because the developers do not care and I don't say that in some mad fanboy way, I mean they have shown at every point that they really don't care for a competitive community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skye Zero View Post
Gunz 2 removed the ability to K-style and many other trick moves. This was what made the game unique in its own way. No other game came close to the combat system gunz had. You defied gravity and did it with style(armor and skills) The best part was you did not have to conform to learning K-style.The community created their own game style without aid of the Developers. Everyone knew their play style and joined rooms that complimented it. (People didn't get angry because you didn't go with the meta(K-style) there were i believe 4 other styles then sprayers)
Gunz isn't a fair example. That game was terrible aside from the existence of kstyle and thus filled a niche for gamers who wanted to play a really technical game without too much strategy. To remove kstyle is to kill the niche of Gunz. Also its not true at all that people accepted other styles. Kstylers would get mad at "sprayers" and "E-style" players would complain about kstylers "abusing glitches". Aside from that there was d-style which really was just kstyle with a dagger.


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o Snick

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Guild Wars 2 - Announced their competitive ESport PVP with much bravado, unfortunately that ship sailed when it took waaaaaaaaay too long to even implement basic features that were required for the game to take off. Also, the whole idea of no vertical progression in PVE got old before I even hit max level.

SWTOR - Jesus dont even get me start. I wanted it to be great so bad. So many broken promises(1.2 ranked warzone dickstomp the night before it released).



Don't make promises you cannot keep.

The two biggest offenders on my list.


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Grigorian Tutor

Senior Member

02-05-2013

It's almost like the gamers are individuals with different wants and needs that cant all be met with perfection at the same time. So companies do there best to judge what gamers want from a title and what is reasonable to accommodate. A large sustained community kind of implies that Roit has done a good job. Dispite how vocal the community is. And still the fact remain LoL like any online game will eventually bottom out no matter how the developers try to handle it.

The most disappointing game of all time is ME3. I cant go into details I just get so angry thinking about it.