Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

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DiscworldDeath

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
we try to have VFX, sounds and other indicators be as clear as possible. We want people to master the game itself, not odd UI and noisy graphics.
You need to work on that some more, especially recently I've noticed this issue cropping up.

When I first played Draven, I've faced a Malzahar and noticed it's more or less impossible to tell where my axes are going to fall underneath all the graphics Malzahar sends all over the place, especially his pool.

Two days ago I played Tryndamere, and while I was not at peak capacity physically, I had a hard time telling where I am in team fights. We're talking Arcade Sona ult, Elise Rappel, Graves ult, Maokai ult, MF ult, Sona ult, and that Christmas Veigar skin all in one place. It's a good thing I don't suffer from seizures >.<

I did notice with some of the newer skins they certainly do "pop" a lot more, and it feels great, when they're alone, but with some of them it gets to the point they are overbearing, or just add too much visual noise and clutter:

Tyrant Swain is awesome, it's just shy of being too much.
Blackthorn Morgana is over-the-top. Everything about it is too loud.
Slay Belle Katarina, I like, but the green leafy effects added say to her W just bring some things over the comfort line, especially in team-fights.

The list goes on, but these are some examples. Blackthorn Morgana makes my head hurt.


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Xyrne

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Fable. The first was great, if flawed. The second managed to take a bunch of stuff out and was watered down in places but still managed to stand on its own. Fable 3 was a shallow, repetitive, idiot-proof atrocity. The Journey killed the series.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-05-2013
34 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hercules Morse View Post
Before I start, I'll say I've never played dota. I've never 'denied' anything. I do see why it is a thing; in terms of winning the game by gaining an advantage over your opponent, it absolutely makes sense to kill your own units to deny exp and gold to the other team.

To me, though, it makes no sense that killing your own units is beneficial. Its unintuitive; where else do you see it, in any game? Its not the same as sacrifice, which is normally a weighed decision with consequences - its just casual murder of friendly units. This increases burden of knowledge and also complexity without adding much depth. You either do it or you don't, and much like last hitting, its not exactly difficult. Kill the dudes on low health, from both sides!

Furthermore, its a totally negative action. You gain nothing from it, but your prevent gains to your opponent. This is exactly why mana-burn is not in the game; its fine for you, but not fun at all for your opponent because they struggle to do anything - to actually play the game.

Comparing it to last hitting doesnt quite work either. Last hitting is not the problem (its just being efficient). Farming is not the problem either (you want to farm, its intuitive to kill the bad guys minions, it makes sense to be rewarded for it, and you want to buy items to be able to do cooler stuff). The problem is the negative consequences of pushing your lane, during the laning phase. I'm not certain how to fix it exactly, but adding denial sure as hell isnt gonna help.

(Off the top of my head, if morello comes back, how about a mechanic where if you push the lane, more opposing minions spawn? This is intuitive (reinforcements!), rewards you for pushing (more farm), and provides incentive to push back. Of course thats a 1 min thought so its bound to have plenty of downsides)
Exactly right, among other things. Last-hitting IS archaic, but is necessary to drive conflict pacing. Another mechanic could replace it, but something needs to exist that accomplishes it.

Denying is not needed - the game functions fine without its existence and there's plenty of other ways to outplay and outskill opponents.


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Bergtau

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Not exactly the specific thing in the OP but any game that requires some sort of DRM lobby thing like uPlay or Games for Windows Live, sometimes having more than one and especially when purchased through Steam. Want to play GTAIV online? Launch Steam. Log in to Steam. Launch GTAIV. Wait for GfWL to load. Log in to GfWL. Wait for the GTAIV thing to load. Log in to that. Finally you can play.

uPlay is particularly sketchy, installs a Firefox add-on without asking permission and continually checks for it, reinstalling it if you remove it. The add-on is able to run things and gather information from your computer and it is possible for websites to exploit it as a vulnerability, giving them root access to your computer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Exactly right, among other things. Last-hitting IS archaic, but is necessary to drive conflict pacing. Another mechanic could replace it, but something needs to exist that accomplishes it.

Denying is not needed - the game functions fine without its existence and there's plenty of other ways to outplay and outskill opponents.
I would say that denying actually makes the game feel worse. I already dislike laning because of how singularly focused it is, denying would make that part feel even more boring. Too much focus on minions not enough on what's actually fun.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-05-2013
35 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscworldDeath View Post
You need to work on that some more, especially recently I've noticed this issue cropping up.

When I first played Draven, I've faced a Malzahar and noticed it's more or less impossible to tell where my axes are going to fall underneath all the graphics Malzahar sends all over the place, especially his pool.

Two days ago I played Tryndamere, and while I was not at peak capacity physically, I had a hard time telling where I am in team fights. We're talking Arcade Sona ult, Elise Rappel, Graves ult, Maokai ult, MF ult, Sona ult, and that Christmas Veigar skin all in one place. It's a good thing I don't suffer from seizures >.<

I did notice with some of the newer skins they certainly do "pop" a lot more, and it feels great, when they're alone, but with some of them it gets to the point they are overbearing, or just add too much visual noise and clutter:

Tyrant Swain is awesome, it's just shy of being too much.
Blackthorn Morgana is over-the-top. Everything about it is too loud.
Slay Belle Katarina, I like, but the green leafy effects added say to her W just bring some things over the comfort line, especially in team-fights.

The list goes on, but these are some examples. Blackthorn Morgana makes my head hurt.
Agreed. Even with a focus, we've not done as well as we'd like here.


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Pistallion

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
All design is to make people feel a certain way. I want you to feel engaged with the game. :P

Welcome to science!
"For great science!" - Heimerdinger


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spookyE5775

Junior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
All design is to make people feel a certain way. I want you to feel engaged with the game. :P

Welcome to science!
but im not,once you have a player with 5 deaths you know you going to lose no matter what if ur team is feeding what can you do now how is this fun now


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spookyE5775

Junior Member

02-05-2013

you have nothing but troll in the game make this game no worth the play


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Bergtau

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by spookyE5775 View Post
but im not,once you have a player with 5 deaths you know you going to lose no matter what if ur team is feeding what can you do now how is this fun now
You speak in very absolute terms that are provably wrong. Stop it.


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Pistallion

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by spookyE5775 View Post
but im not,once you have a player with 5 deaths you know you going to lose no matter what if ur team is feeding what can you do now how is this fun now
do something to prevent the 4 deaths after the first one that was made. you have the possibility to influence probably like 80% or more of the games you play to go in your favor. sitting in your lane just farming doesnt help.