Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

First Riot Post
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Geonde

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I'm saying I don't think raids should be inclusive, as the exclusivity of content creates a psychological trick in your brain that makes the game feel endless. Basically, my direction would be (and maybe incorrectly - I haven't tried!) that all content is not for everyone. If anything, League proves core gaming has a big audience, and you don't have to make things easy.
Even though WoW has an immense amount of content at this point, it's still WoW. Players that thoroughly enjoyed it will realize that and get bored after playing enough, such as myself.


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Kaolla

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
To use your example, in the pattern of Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King, the changes to easier raid content and more accessibility is actually informed by a want that a lot of players expressed - IE, raids were content that was exclusive from them and they wanted a piece.
it boiled down to blizzard got lazier and lazier. instead of making content for all people who are subscribing to their game, they made 1 set and made it accessible to everyone.

when people who invest the time and effort aren't given the special things they work for, it makes them disenfranchised.


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DESSILATOR

Member

02-04-2013

Zipper and socom socom 2 greatest game ever, they simplify it and go for realism. Socom 3 onwards suck. Biggest failure being socom 4. Zipper is now bankrupt and serves them right.


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TheEnygma

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You don't like WoW (clearly!), but this is the attitude I'm saying is flatly incorrect. WoW is a well-crafted game that you do not happen to like. Our own personal tastes do not equate to what is good and bad in game development, only what our potential engagement is. And, to be frank, if you're not the audience, it has little impact on anyone else.

I don't like playing Halo. Halo is an extremely good game.
I feel this needs to be quoted every single time a fanboy runs their mouth about something.


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Greas3

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Yeah, I played all three of the games you mentioned religiously lol (Gunz, Maple and WoW). I was the highest person on my maple server at a WHOPPING level 90~ in 2006 and people thought I was the messiah. There wasn't even a 3rd job yet. I was a level 90 Cleric lol.

But, I digress. Look at SSBM (super smash brothers melee), a mechanic that wasn't even intended (wave dashing) actually let the game ascend to an additional level of play and have professional depth that took hours to learn. Without that, it never would have gone as far as it did.

Lol has ALREADY removed similar depth in the wards nerf that happened about 2 years ago now. Wards used to have hit-boxes and were able to block certain kill shots and even moves like Rammus' powerball. This. Was. Awesome. It significantly separated players of different skill levels. Why is it necessary to remove beautiful nuances like this? The wards could even block blitz pull if dropped with the right timing, recently people have been raging that he's OP... well? See what you did riot? Just leave the nuance... nuance is what makes games good, not what makes them bad.


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And it was K

Member

02-04-2013

I dunno. I liked the heroic raids in Wrath of the Lich King, as I felt they kept the old challenge intact, but being a raider really didn't feel as epic as it did in TBC. Would that epic, exclusive kinda feeling be worth keeping the majority of players out of high end raids, though? I mean, I really wish they had kept Wrath like TBC, as a player, but I'm not the one catering to an audience.

I do think I remember that WoW saw its biggest jump in subscriptions in TBC, though. Went up to like 10 or 11 million, so those claiming Wrath was the biggest success may not be accurate.

Oh, also, how do you feel about aspects of the game other than raiding? I was big in to raiding, but I think what really killed the game for me was that the world felt lifeless in Wrath. Before I raided, and even once I was a raider really, I just loved derping around and going on adventures with friends. I think World pvp, outdoor bosses, and server communities helped to facilitate that, but I think the LFG thing, phasing, and a bunch of other stuff just ended up confining server populations to major cities. They took a lot of the flavor out of everything else.


I frequented WoW GD as much as I do LoL GD now. I posted loudly about my feelings about the game, but it just seemed like everyone disagreed with me and were still having fun, so I just left because the game was obviously for a different audience than me.


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Aithòs

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
You don't like WoW (clearly!), but this is the attitude I'm saying is flatly incorrect. WoW is a well-crafted game that you do not happen to like. Our own personal tastes do not equate to what is good and bad in game development, only what our potential engagement is. And, to be frank, if you're not the audience, it has little impact on anyone else.

I don't like playing Halo. Halo is an extremely good game.
I disagree sir! Real FPS players play with a keyboard and mouse and all those console shooters are garbage! Lol. Just kidding. Although the part about real FPS players I meant, keyboard and mouse really is the way to go (higher skillcap).

This is the attitude you have to fight though, from all sides. Especially in a game like WoW where the audience is so varied. You have everyone from the hardcore 40+ hour a week crowd in both PVE and PVP but also the kid who wants to play an hour a day after school. There are examples of games that transcend their genres in pure design and those stand the test of time (which is really the only one that matters).

There can be no argument that Mario Brothers, Tetris, Madden, Counterstrike, WoW, Halo and any number of other games have done that. That isn't to say that EVERY iteration is great, but a franchise doesn't last 8, 10 or 20 years without being well designed.


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Blazing Fang

Senior Member

02-04-2013

For a while i was a runescape fan but then EOC ,aka Evolution of *****....Evolution of combat came out. (a revolution of the how the combat system would be which as a result changed game play GREATLY) The unique and old style and relax game play made the game amazing for me and a lot of other players. Fagex (Jagex) wouldn't listen to the community about well anything (and this no different) and as a result i left...i honestly do hope LoL doesn't end up like rs.


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Morello

Lead Designer

02-04-2013
13 of 91 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skaarrjj View Post
Raids HAVE to be inclusive for the most part. Because that's the only major content in a MMO at max level on the PvE aspect of it. That's the only way to really "progress". How could you miss that? That's why there's heroic raids, so people who want challenging content can go and do that and feel exclusive. And even the new thing where there's a uber secret hard boss that is only unlocked in heroic mode.

I'm actually really startled you could miss something like that. I'm glad league of legends is a game where everyone can participate at max level.
You sure? The game has massive numbers even without accessible raid content - it was in a big period of growth during this time - many players who do not raid have plenty to keep them busy.

Since not everyone plays for mastery, and many play for achievement, over-time reward structures (dailies, rep grinds) engage the majority of the players. The minority still raids, but now it's lost the exclusivity. Are you sure your views are representative?

They may be - I don't have access to their data which could prove me wrong. I'm just checking to see if you're thinking about it from a holistic perspective or a personal one.


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Fayori

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I'm saying I don't think raids should be inclusive, as the exclusivity of content creates a psychological trick in your brain that makes the game feel endless. Basically, my direction would be (and maybe incorrectly - I haven't tried!) that all content is not for everyone. If anything, League proves core gaming has a big audience, and you don't have to make things easy.
I like you, Morello. You get exactly what I have argued on forums about for so many hours, which is probably why I like League so much. Keep it up. <3