Why do Game Developers think they know what the players want? What games failed you?

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And it was not K

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Massive Morello post detailing things wants needs cataclysm of burning liches
So what you're saying is that we need more Annie and Teemo skins even if that's not necessarily what we want. I understand where you're coming from, and I might even agree if not for the facts and science benefiting my understanding of the universal partition which clearly demonstrate a lack of understanding between the true fundamentals of what it means to be a Teemo.


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SirTimbo

Senior Member

02-04-2013

[QUOTE=poochiepoo;34283942]It wasn't enough for a sequel. There were 3 new levels, 3 new enemies, and melee weapons. That was it. Not to mention that Valve Released this game when the first one in the series technically wasn't even finished yet. This was more of a cash grab that pissed people off because Valve cheated people with this game.

QUOTE]
There was a whole new campaign (4 at least), the inclusion of uncommon common infected, the 3 new enemies greatly changed the flow and way the game played (no more sitting a corner shooting until all the zombies are cleared) along changes to game challenges such as having to run to shut off the alarm, or the bridge finale of having to cross it.

For a first person shooter that is a helluvalot of content added while maintaining balance, they also added a new tier of ranged weapons and bile grenades. Compared to any sequel to a multiplayer fps this was a great deal more content. I'd complain about halo 3 before left 4 dead 2.


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DemothHymside

Senior Member

02-04-2013

I want Morello to actually change his name to Nerfmaster Sucktown, and then ban anyone who addresses him.... Well, except for me, for having done that.... Right now.


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Captain Youl

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Senior Member

02-04-2013

question for you morello, do you think with the flow of constent nerfs, the champs are losing whats make them unique/good, if a part of a champion kit is too good you nerf it, by doing so you kill a part of the champion, just look at urgot, he had too much range on ult and E+Q, you nerfed it, now he just feels meh, what if you could nerf things people care less about like the slow % on his shield, or best just buff the others champs so they could all be unique enough to be counter to your balance problem, kinda like dota 2 but with less OPness.

example: blitzcrank grab is the best part of his kit, but its ok since his passive consumme his mana and his W slows him after the overdrive hes OP and UP at the same time making him unique and balanced

example #2: heimer can zone too easily with his 3 turrets, but its ok since hes squishy and cant rely on his others spells to protect himself.


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Yma Sumac

Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post

At Riot, we nerf champions. Nerfs are rarely wanted (and many times, unwanted). But, players want to have a fair experience with a variety of options. Additionally, a game without power caps and heavy power creep (something still happening faster than I'd like...) can disrupt the core game design focused around choices, decision-making, and strategy. To accomplish this, we need to nerf champions, even if players don't explicitly want us to.
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instead of putting a bandaid on a problem, how about give players the tools to counter.

Instead of nerfing and simply paving the way for someone else to become indirectly more powerful and fotm. Instead of solving nothing, and causing a cyclic balance mess in where the community is herded around like sheep, not actually improving at the game but are so dependant on what fotm to jump to next because of patch notes

Introduce active items, encourage mechanics. In Dota, when Enigma and chaneled AOE ults was fotm, Icefrog rather than nerfing him, introduced force staff. The community learned to cope and Enigma was left untouched because the meta changed based on player actions. Force staff was not an immediate press X for win button counter, it required thinking, creativity, innovation and had many uses. You claim on your website that the game is driven by player choices, so far this has not been true at all, It's all based on whatever remains from the dust of every patch nerf bomb.

Encourage player interaction within the game and help them to learn how to counter by themselves. Instead of spoon feeding this community and encouraging bad behavior and stupidity. Perhaps then the community would in fact become better players, instead of better mathematicians.

You do not need to give us a new champion every week and cause power fluctuation. I would seriously not care if you spent the next 2-3 months developing new items, cleaning up bugs, and patching the game without a single release. Yes you would lose revenue, however I think it would be worth it in the long run for a popular, self-sustaining free to play competitive and casual game

You want to make money? Just release skins, my cheapest friends who normally pirate games will buy skins


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CrazedPorcupine

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Dota did the opposite of this, many of Dota's mechanics are actually glitches purposefully incorporated or just plain old left in at teh demand fo the community. Pulling, stacking, and even Tiny's bonus damage on toss landing on top of avalanche. Honestly, if a bug or glitch creates a new playstyle, Devs should leave it in.


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Suda

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's a tricky topic, because our job is to make decisions based on what players not only want, but need. Let me explain that a bit.

Determining what players want is actually pretty simple - your most invested users tend to be very vocal and will put effort into making sure they're heard (ie; most forumers!) This is a good metric of understanding what players want, at least for high-engagement folks.

What players need is where players don't proclaim a desire for something, but it helps provide something they say they want. Many times, this is more than a single solution - it requires several steps of implementation to reach a result, or takes time to bake in many cases. Let me provide two example of want vs need, and why want cannot be the only driver for developers;

At Riot, we nerf champions. Nerfs are rarely wanted (and many times, unwanted). But, players want to have a fair experience with a variety of options. Additionally, a game without power caps and heavy power creep (something still happening faster than I'd like...) can disrupt the core game design focused around choices, decision-making, and strategy. To accomplish this, we need to nerf champions, even if players don't explicitly want us to.

To use your example, in the pattern of Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King, the changes to easier raid content and more accessibility is actually informed by a want that a lot of players expressed - IE, raids were content that was exclusive from them and they wanted a piece. I respect the guys who make WoW (and its success is a testament), but this is a good example of where the developers should have recognized the core need of exclusivity and the right tuning of that, and steered away from players said they wanted. Personally, I think Burning Crusade is a sweet spot.

The above is a fantastic example of why we have to make tough choices and not always just do what players ask us to do - it's not always the right course of action.

The problem you're speaking to, in my opinion, is when developers think they always have that answer and that being a developer gives you divination into what that is. In my mind, game development isn't about having answers - it's the ways in which you find them.

Our interaction on here isn't just lip-service, it's so we can better optimize decisions around player wants - and explain what players need when they don't want it. This informs us a lot, but we make decisions based on a number of factors - player desires and feedback being one of them.

I hope this helps explain how I feel about this, and how the developer/player interaction looks to me.
yea lets nurf olaf or warmogs LOL hp building and u nurf olaf and elise is not op she just builds warmogs to LOL


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naotasan

Senior Member

02-04-2013

Morello, where is Ranked Dominion and why does nobody want to have a discussion about this at Riot?


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Koechophe

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Senior Member

02-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Usually when a champion topic is ignored, it's mostly because we aren't focused on this problem because we have a lot of other stuff prioritized currently. That's the case with Viktor right now.
I understand your need for prioritization. I don't understand why you guys couldn't drop a comment on threads like that that have a lot of attention that tells people that champions like victor aren't a priority.


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messymike

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Senior Member

02-04-2013

because i'm so sure that enough of the LoL community was wanting and needing a new ranked system this season.... hah

what EVERYONE wants is a good matchmaking system, which still seems to be evading riots grasp after almost 4 years

i've had 1, 2 at the most, good evenly matched games in the last year. i mean games where literally either team could win and they'd DESERVE the win, and not just win because of some stupid advantage via troll/afk/poor matchmaking
games like that are ridiculously exciting and fun, and when you lose them you don't feel like **** and rage. reproducing games like that should be riots number 1 goal over anything else.