Riot powercreeped the hell out of their own game

First Riot Post
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Remikai

Senior Member

02-25-2013

The Riot posts are discouraging too say the least.... Just admit Vi and others compared to the champs the OP listed are stupidly imbalanced.

The only viable melee are packed with gap closers, CC, innate tankyness and abilities that scale with defensive stats... among other things. You need at least 3 of those things, something the old champs do not have.


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Grockk

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remikai View Post
The Riot posts are discouraging too say the least.... Just admit Vi and others compared to the champs the OP listed are stupidly imbalanced.

The only viable melee are packed with gap closers, CC, innate tankyness and abilities that scale with defensive stats... among other things. You need at least 3 of those things, something the old champs do not have.
yeah i hate going up against Vi with WW. I feel like I could have 2k more gold and still lose.


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FalconPawwwwnch

Member

03-03-2013

So Riot, great job on the Nasus changes! it really made him viable again. But you still got a few more champs to fix. How about you start off with warwick, and then sion, then GP


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FalconPawwwwnch

Member

04-06-2013

Hey guess who still hasn't gotten help? Oh that's right, warwick sion and gangplank. Tryndamere was good for a week but not even as an ad champ, then he was butchered again.


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TheFakeSit

Member

04-06-2013

Over 100 champions. All of them have to be competitively viable at all times no matter what or the community complains. Logic.


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Beezil

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Senior Member

04-06-2013

The new champs do have a lot of advantages to many of the old champs. it's sad when you barely see them in games anymore.


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BiggerFish

Senior Member

04-06-2013

It amuses me that Tryndamere briefly came into viability again, but only as AP.

Sion is still a nice pick. But only as AP.

WW can still be used well in the right hands... But as AP....


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Xyltin

Senior Member

04-06-2013

Sion in on the remake list.
GP is not too bad. slight buffs would be enough.
Same with WW. People underestimate WW a lot. He is acutally pretty decent top and in the jungle. There is a reason why his win rate is not too bad.

Rammus, Nasus, Zil, Udyr, ... there are tons of old champs that are still strong or even a bit OP.
Sure, their kits are a bit outdated, but as we see with Trundle, Seju or Ryze, Riot takes this matter serious and does something. But they can't do great new kits while the champ feels still nearly the same in one month.


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IS1127eeccd408ce05da2b4

Senior Member

04-06-2013

Well, I suggest people comparing the reworked Karma's kits and Lissandra's kits,
and then you will realize the gap is insanely deep even after remake!

They highly buff the new champ and nerf the old champ,
Who outshines the one other?


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doubleguac

Senior Member

04-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
Can you please tell me what you mean by elegantly? I think we are in agreement that you can tweak the numbers to make lower utility champions viable. Isn't it OK for a champion to excel at a few things, and that be part of how they work?
AD sion is a super good example of a champion who cannot be elegantly balanced by number changes. A lot of the melee champions without true dashes suffer from a kind of "udyr syndrome," where they are extremely potent if they reach their target but are easy to kite, especially since so many champions now have dashes. A few examples are udyr himself and volibear, but the worst offender is AD sion.

He's a melee carry with no dash, no slow, and no speed boost. All he has is a short, long cooldown stun. No matter how much you change his numbers, there is no place you will reach with him where he will feel good for both the player using him and that player's opponent. Increasing his damage or tankiness just makes him more and more powerful when he reaches his target, but doesn't help him reach that target or stick to them at all. Increasing the duration of his stun isn't a viable solution either, as there is no point at which a stun is sufficiently long for it to be useable as the only sticking tool on an auto attack champion (without making the stun insanely unfun and overpowered).

I think this is the difference between older and newer champions that the OP is talking about. Vi is absolutely balanceable, and not only that, she could be balanced in a number of ways. You could change her numbers and essentially turn her into an assassin (by reducing her tankiness), or you could nerf her damage and focus on her tankiness and utility ,making her a disruptor. The point is, she has everything she could possible want on her kit, with amazing utility, amazing stickiness, and abilities that fit together nicely. There is absolutely a point in which her numbers will yield a perfectly balanced and useable champion.

AD Sion is absolutely not balanceable in his current state. There is no way to make him reliably reach his target using his current kit. Buffing him will only make him even more facerolley when he actually does reach his target, which just makes him more of a threat against less mechanically skilled players who are not as proficient at kiting/ccing him. He simply needs more "things" on his kit: he needs a slow somewhere, or an ms steroid, or tenacity somewhere on his kit to be useful.

I actually have the opposite view of the OP though. While I think Zac and Vi have maybe too much mobility and utility built into their kits, I think generally the reason old champions often feel clunkier is because they are simply less well designed. Riot shouldn't return to the design dynamics of the original 40; they should retroactively improve the design on those older champions to fit newer standards. To my understanding, Sion is getting a champion relaunch at some point, and I think that's awesome.