Permed for this, there's harsh and there's ridicolous.

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gnfnrf

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Permabans are hard to judge from reform cards, because we don't have all the data.

Looking at the case itself, I see..

Game 1: Not much, but the random report request at the end is a bit odd. You don't even try to tell them why?

Game 2: More allchat report requests, but at least you try for a reason this time. Oh, wait, now you want them to report Shen but don't say why.

This constant report-fishing is getting on my nerves. I wouldn't punish for it alone, but it won't help you if I come across anything else.

Game 3: Now you're starting to lose me. Lux is trying to work with you, and you aren't playing ball. Then, you start harassing her play. This case is now a punish case.

Game 4: Nothing to see here. I don't think the math works out for your ending items, but I won't sweat it.

Game 5: That is a serious death total, but not out of line with your teammates. The itemization is also terrible for S3, but this could be an S2 game, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Final verdict. 2 mildly annoying games, one significant problem attitude game, and two games without problems. Comfortable punish, but not disastrous.

Now, should it have been a permaban? I have no idea. Riot makes the permaban decision, and uses your entire Tribunal history, plus looks at pre and post-game chat, reports that never made the Tribunal, and who knows what else. I can't guess what they saw or didn't see.


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GOOOOOSE

Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnfnrf View Post
Permabans are hard to judge from reform cards, because we don't have all the data.

Looking at the case itself, I see..

Game 1: Not much, but the random report request at the end is a bit odd. You don't even try to tell them why?

Game 2: More allchat report requests, but at least you try for a reason this time. Oh, wait, now you want them to report Shen but don't say why.

This constant report-fishing is getting on my nerves. I wouldn't punish for it alone, but it won't help you if I come across anything else.

Game 3: Now you're starting to lose me. Lux is trying to work with you, and you aren't playing ball. Then, you start harassing her play. This case is now a punish case.

Game 4: Nothing to see here. I don't think the math works out for your ending items, but I won't sweat it.

Game 5: That is a serious death total, but not out of line with your teammates. The itemization is also terrible for S3, but this could be an S2 game, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Final verdict. 2 mildly annoying games, one significant problem attitude game, and two games without problems. Comfortable punish, but not disastrous.

Now, should it have been a permaban? I have no idea. Riot makes the permaban decision, and uses your entire Tribunal history, plus looks at pre and post-game chat, reports that never made the Tribunal, and who knows what else. I can't guess what they saw or didn't see.
While there is nothing inherently wrong with what you posted, your somewhat weak subjectivity to what annoyance is and what constitutes a permaban is borderline alarming.
The only game I see as even remotely worth a report would be the lux game, and if you look at how much I was being insulted by her ( yes, the one I carried), I'd say I was relatively restrained in my chat. It's important to look at this case pragmatically, to talk in absolutes and say my slight sarcasm toward her justifies this ban is blind, and speaks truths about the tribunal system.


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ThorHammerz

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Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOOOOOSE View Post
While there is nothing inherently wrong with what you posted, your somewhat weak subjectivity to what annoyance is and what constitutes a permaban is borderline alarming.
The only game I see as even remotely worth a report would be the lux game, and if you look at how much I was being insulted by her ( yes, the one I carried), I'd say I was relatively restrained in my chat. It's important to look at this case pragmatically, to talk in absolutes and say my slight sarcasm toward her justifies this ban is blind, and speaks truths about the tribunal system.
Perhaps you missed the part "looks at your entire tribunal history, and any pre-game/post-game (including the games that did not make the tribunal, but were still reported) data when considering a permaban".


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GOOOOOSE

Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorHammerz View Post
Perhaps you missed the part "looks at your entire tribunal history, and any pre-game/post-game (including the games that did not make the tribunal, but were still reported) data when considering a permaban".
I'll repeat myself again, speculation is useless. You amazingly added nothing to this conversation with 3 lines of words. I want a RED's justification on my ban, not a puppet that quotes what he reads on /r/leaugoelegends


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RQ Kiwi

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOOOOOSE View Post
I'll repeat myself again, speculation is useless. You amazingly added nothing to this conversation with 3 lines of words. I want a RED's justification on my ban, not a puppet that quotes what he reads on /r/leaugoelegends
Then ask support, instead of the forums.


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GOOOOOSE

Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RQ Kiwi View Post
Then ask support, instead of the forums.
Thank's for your profound advice. I went here on the advice of some of the people I know who got a perm ban. They said they got no reply from their support ticket after lengthy amounts of waiting, and it seems, unfortunately that you have to make a forum post in order to be heard. The main problem with this is having to dissect people like you.


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BillyTheAttorney

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOOOOOSE View Post
Generally this argument revolves around on where the burden of proof lies, e.g If one says " God exists, you can't prove he doesn't" Then it's just as easy to say " God doesn't exist, you can't prove he does" As you can see it enters somewhat of a useless circle of malformed logic. The burden of proof is on the one who is proposing an axiom ( or a premise). ( such as this guy proposing i'm trolling)
That's the kind of discussion that the Jesuits would spend a whole class going back and forth on. It's very interesting, and you're right. In a metaphysical sense faith is one of those strange things that cannot be proven or disproven.

Unfortunately, to settle a more tangible dispute two conflicting parties have a different version of "true" events. One person says "this person did that" and the other person says "I did not do that" and then we are given a set of "known data" or facts. However, while we all strive to find that "concrete intent" or "smoking gun data point" rarely are we presented with an opportunity.

In the case of whether or not you were trolling we are presented with a set of facts - the items purchased by you in game, and in-game behavior as given to us by the chat log. Can they prove you were trolling by themselves? I don't know. But can they DISPROVE that you were trolling either? I don't think so. So you are on equal footing. What we are left then with "your word vs. their word."

unfortunately your argument of "I wasn't trolling" wasn't decided by the Tribunal. Rather the whole sequence of cases were. So I don't think we will know for sure whether or not other people think you were trolling, and we will never know if you weren't.

The same as you make the accusation of "I lolking'd you, and you clearly do not know what you're talking about" to someone else. We won't know if said accusation is right or wrong. It is, however, a bit of a hypocritical accusation to make after you go to lengths to make this point about an inability to prove or disprove things.

I don't know if you're trolling, people saying you are can't prove it, but nor can you disprove it. However, because one instance is inconclusive as a singular case does not mean it's not factored into the whole set of games levied against you.

And a "burden of proof" is actually different depending on the situation. Unfortunately, you agreed to abide by the Tribunal every time you click accept after a patch. I don't know enough about your own personal case history to know if you warrant a Permaban on your account...

But I also don't have enough proof to know that you do not warrant one either.


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YueienGato

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyTheAttorney View Post
That's the kind of discussion that the Jesuits would spend a whole class going back and forth on. It's very interesting, and you're right. In a metaphysical sense faith is one of those strange things that cannot be proven or disproven.

Unfortunately, to settle a more tangible dispute two conflicting parties have a different version of "true" events. One person says "this person did that" and the other person says "I did not do that" and then we are given a set of "known data" or facts. However, while we all strive to find that "concrete intent" or "smoking gun data point" rarely are we presented with an opportunity.

In the case of whether or not you were trolling we are presented with a set of facts - the items purchased by you in game, and in-game behavior as given to us by the chat log. Can they prove you were trolling by themselves? I don't know. But can they DISPROVE that you were trolling either? I don't think so. So you are on equal footing. What we are left then with "your word vs. their word."

unfortunately your argument of "I wasn't trolling" wasn't decided by the Tribunal. Rather the whole sequence of cases were. So I don't think we will know for sure whether or not other people think you were trolling, and we will never know if you weren't.

The same as you make the accusation of "I lolking'd you, and you clearly do not know what you're talking about" to someone else. We won't know if said accusation is right or wrong. It is, however, a bit of a hypocritical accusation to make after you go to lengths to make this point about an inability to prove or disprove things.

I don't know if you're trolling, people saying you are can't prove it, but nor can you disprove it. However, because one instance is inconclusive as a singular case does not mean it's not factored into the whole set of games levied against you.

And a "burden of proof" is actually different depending on the situation. Unfortunately, you agreed to abide by the Tribunal every time you click accept after a patch. I don't know enough about your own personal case history to know if you warrant a Permaban on your account...

But I also don't have enough proof to know that you do not warrant one either.
Curious Billy, did you spend some time during your undergrad period lurking amongst the Greek logic and rhetoric classics? The way you approach certain arguments reeks of a familiarity with the humanities, but you strike me more of a rhetorical student.


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Xianio

Senior Member

01-28-2013

You're not going to be let off of this permaban. Sorry, but that's simply the way it is.

First: There has only been 1 special case where a permaban was overturned and that was due to Pendragons "contest." That contest has been removed and no one has ever had one overturned since.

Second: To even HOPE for a chance at overturning this you would need to be basically spotless. You are not. This isn't a case where people honestly don't even consider you punish worthy.

Third: You're making an appeal to the very people who looked over your recent game history and said "you're out." Not us, Riot.

If you're spending your time justifying your behaviour to us you've already lost the battle. The ONLY argument you have is that you're behaviour is a million times better than it used to be and you can show continual improvement WITHOUT "slips."

We didn't permaban you, Riot did. You got personal attention from them and your recent history told a compelling enough story to remove you. Your best and only option is a support ticket - just don't hold your breath.


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Shelzin

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOOOOOSE View Post
I'll say it again, speculations are useless.
*nods*

Ok.