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[Champion Concept] Vash, The Ghost from the Machine

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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Moby the White:
For you always but I won't get it written until after the 31st


Works for me.

I'm not sure what his story will be so I'll let you know once I have it figured out.


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Moby the White

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Cryoshell17:
Works for me.

I'm not sure what his story will be so I'll let you know once I have it figured out.


sounds good gives us both time


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Extra Pistol

Recruiter

01-29-2013

Review #2: Vash, The Ghost from the Machine
Link your champion concept here for an in-depth review. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=34042992)

Quote:
---------- Abilities (Passive) ----------
-Active Camo- Whenever Vash's HP drops low (Below 30%) he stealths for 3 seconds. (60 second cooldown) Also whenever Vash exits a brush he retains the stealth from it for 1 seconds. (5 second cooldown) (Cooldowns are not affected by cooldown reduction)


This is a passive I've seen on a lot of concepts before. It's a good initiation/escape tool that basically pidgeonholes the champion into a side lane where brush is more common. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, given that it is a carry, but be careful. The stealth escape tool is also interesting, but overlaps with the ultimate. On a character that is this poke-heavy as it is, its function as an escape seems excessive and its function as an initiation isn't useful.

Quote:
----------Abilities (Q) ----------
-Lightshot- Vash fires a bullet of pure light, dealing magic damage and revealing the first enemy it hits. Does no pierce enemies.

-Type- Skillshot
-Amount of Damage- 45/65/85/105/125 (0.6 Bonus AD) (1.0 AP) Magic Damage
-Range- 1100 units
-Cost- 30/35/40/45/50 Mana
-Cooldown- 10/9/8/7/6 seconds
-Note- Enemies are revealed for 4 second if hit by Lightshot


This is very similar to Ezreal's Q ability, sans on-hit effects, and with a reveal effect and a longer cooldown. This makes it less of a poke tool and more of an initiation, allowing Vash to continue to attack enemies that try to duck into brush. Since Vash doesn't have any built-in gap closers other than his incredibly high base movement speed (more on this later), this seems to be in order. An information warfare theme is apparent on this character and this ability correctly hits that mark.

Quote:
---------- Abilities (W) ----------
(Name help?) -Flashbang Grenade- Vash throws a bouncing grenade to target location. If the grenade doesn't hit an enemy in that area it will bounce up to three time or until it hits an enemy, the bomb will explode, dealing magic damage and blinding enemies within the blast radius upon hitting an enemy or after bouncing three times.

-Type- Skillshot
-Amount of Damage- 75/120/165/210/255 (0.65 AP) magic damage
-Range- (Maximum casting range) 850 (Maximum total range) 1400 (Damage radius) 200 (Blind Radius) 500
-Cost- 75/80/85/90/95 mana
-Cooldown- 15/14/13/12/11 seconds
-Notes- Enemies caught in the blind radius is blinded for 3 seconds.


This seems to be a combination of Ziggs's Q and Heimerdinger's grenade, without the stun component (probably for the better on a carry). While I like the idea, it's starting to feel like the character is stepping on Ezreal/Corki's toes as far as being a poke/skillshot carry. A 3 second blind available at level 1 pretty much seals the deal in early engagements, make this scale with rank. Combined with his very high movement speed I am worried that this character is very hard to trade with in lane.

Quote:
---------- Abilities (E) ----------
-Imperialist- (Passive) Vash gains extra attack speed and attack range with each level of Imperialist. (Active) Vash targets a single enemy unit and fires a precision laser at them, dealing true damage. Costs HP instead of Mana.

-Type- (Passive) Buff (Active) Single Target
-Type of Buff- Attack Speed and Attack Range
-Buff Amount- (Attack Speed) 15/20/25/30/35% bonus attack speed (Attack Range) 100/125/150/175/200
-Amount of Damage- 60/85/110/135/160 True Damage
-Cost- 40/64/88/112/136 HP
-Cooldown- 8/7/6/5/4 seconds


The passive stats seem a bit excessive here, so I'm hesitant to comment on them. Since he's already a poker, attack speed doesn't really benefit him unless he's in the fray, and with his movement speed and attack range it doesn't seem like he'd ever need to do a sustained fight until late game.

In general range increases are dangerous, especially on ranged carries, and this is no exception. Right now it can boost his range to 750 by level 9, beating out a fully-leveled Tristana. The fact that this is flat true damage doesn't seem to do much for him, since it is functionally a fight accelerator. These work on fighters and other guys who don't dish out tons of damage but do have a lot of health and don't mind losing it (see Olaf). Why take some of your own health to damage an enemy that probably has a lot more health than you when you could just be kiting? This character seems really good at that, and if that is the goal, then make sure the mechanics speak to that.

Even with these problems on the active effect, the passive effects of this ability make it the most attractive ranking option. The range boost either needs to be nerfed significantly, or the rest of the kit and character needs to be built around it, such as having very low movement speed.

Quote:
---------- Abilities (Ultimate) ----------
(Name help?) -The Machina- Vash readies his rifle and pops a smoke grenade at a target location, shrouding friendly units, (Works like Akali's Twilight Shroud) slowing enemies within the smoke and dealing magic damage initially, then over time. While the smoke-screen is active, Vash has greatly increased attack speed, attack damage and movement speed.

-Type- AoE, debuff and buff.
-Type of Buff- Attack Speed, Attack Damage and Movement Speed.
-Type of Debuff- Movement speed
-Debuff Amount- 30% slow
-Buff Amount- 30% boost to Attack Speed and Movement Speed, 20% to total Attack Damage.
-Amount of Damage- (Initial Damage) 125/200/275 (0.5 AP) magic damage (DoT) 10/20/30/40/50 (0.2 AP) magic damage. (Total DoT 50/10/150/200/250 (1.0 AP) magic damage.
-Range- (Cast range) 125 units (AoE diameter) 1000 units
-Cost- 100 mana
-Cooldown- 100/80/60


Team stealth is neat, but the functionality conflicts with the character very sharply. As a carry, you'd want to constantly be autoattacking, especially since being in this shroud functions as a massive steroid to auto-based stats. Unfortunately, in League when you stealth you lose your autoattack target, so you'd basically be mashing right click on your target to counteract the stealthing (which would reveal you, nullifying the effect of the stealth). Since you'd be the one popping out of stealth the most often, this would draw a lot of attention to yourself (definitely something a carry doesn't want). The fact the shroud damages enemies encourages it to be used as a damage tool, but at a radius of 500 it starts out as being closer ranged than your basic attacks before E's bonuses. It boils down to only being effective as a retreat tool, which it excels at. Normally this would be okay, but Vash is already a very high-poke, high-range character. Even if he was slowed down, this ultimate fixes any problems he would have and simply serve to frustrate opponents further.

Final Thoughts:
  • Vash seems really conflicted, or overpowered, or both.
    His kit is a combination of ridiculously high-range poke, mobility, escape, and utility. Carries rarely get more than one or two of these things for a reason- any more makes them very frustrating to fight against. If his intent is to poke from a very high range, allow enemies to cover in brush until they can catch him out. If the intent is to be a utility carry (similar to Ashe), he definitely doesn't need all that range and poke. Pick a kit goal and begin stripping out the extra frills.
  • His abilities fit a flavor theme, but not a mechanical one.
    I like the high-tech information warfare theme, and it would go great on a utility carry or a disabler-assassin. In its current design, though, these effects are coupled with high range poke damage, which sort of defeats the purpose of utility effects: to set up for other champions.

What I Like:
  • The Q's reveal effect is interesting as a scouting tool. I would love this on a support.

Where to Improve:
  • Make sure that abilities complement each other or the character's strengths, rather than try to cover their weaknesses.
  • Focus on a goal for the kit when deciding what ideas to keep and what ones to pass on.


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jefffroson

Member

01-30-2013

I'd be interested to see lore because I'm a little confused about how the title relates to the general look and abilities. Passive seems like something that would be better suited for a jungler with ganks. Why does e do true damage? Please consider re-working w it is to similar to Ziggs' q because of a grenade that bounces 3 times.
Overall good job just some suggestions


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

01-30-2013

To Extra Pistol

Quote:
Extra Pistol:
This is a passive I've seen on a lot of concepts before. It's a good initiation/escape tool that basically pidgeonholes the champion into a side lane where brush is more common. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, given that it is a carry, but be careful. The stealth escape tool is also interesting, but overlaps with the ultimate. On a character that is this poke-heavy as it is, its function as an escape seems excessive and its function as an initiation isn't useful.


I don't suppose there's much I can do about that...Ah well :<

Quote:
Extra Pistol:
This is very similar to Ezreal's Q ability, sans on-hit effects, and with a reveal effect and a longer cooldown. This makes it less of a poke tool and more of an initiation, allowing Vash to continue to attack enemies that try to duck into brush. Since Vash doesn't have any built-in gap closers other than his incredibly high base movement speed (more on this later), this seems to be in order. An information warfare theme is apparent on this character and this ability correctly hits that mark.


Quick correction, it doesn't apply on-hit effects (Think Lee Sin).

Quote:
Extra Pistol:
This seems to be a combination of Ziggs's Q and Heimerdinger's grenade, without the stun component (probably for the better on a carry). While I like the idea, it's starting to feel like the character is stepping on Ezreal/Corki's toes as far as being a poke/skillshot carry. A 3 second blind available at level 1 pretty much seals the deal in early engagements, make this scale with rank. Combined with his very high movement speed I am worried that this character is very hard to trade with in lane.


So reduce the blind on it? I can do that. Also should I reduce the range on it as well (A step away from poke-centric) or keep it the way it is?

Quote:
Extra Pistol:
The passive stats seem a bit excessive here, so I'm hesitant to comment on them. Since he's already a poker, attack speed doesn't really benefit him unless he's in the fray, and with his movement speed and attack range it doesn't seem like he'd ever need to do a sustained fight until late game.

In general range increases are dangerous, especially on ranged carries, and this is no exception. Right now it can boost his range to 750 by level 9, beating out a fully-leveled Tristana. The fact that this is flat true damage doesn't seem to do much for him, since it is functionally a fight accelerator. These work on fighters and other guys who don't dish out tons of damage but do have a lot of health and don't mind losing it (see Olaf). Why take some of your own health to damage an enemy that probably has a lot more health than you when you could just be kiting? This character seems really good at that, and if that is the goal, then make sure the mechanics speak to that.

Even with these problems on the active effect, the passive effects of this ability make it the most attractive ranking option. The range boost either needs to be nerfed significantly, or the rest of the kit and character needs to be built around it, such as having very low movement speed.


Looking at it now you're right, there's holes everywhere. I might just scrap it completely and change it to a trap ability or a vision ability. It would fit his role better.


Quote:
Extra Pistol:
Team stealth is neat, but the functionality conflicts with the character very sharply. As a carry, you'd want to constantly be autoattacking, especially since being in this shroud functions as a massive steroid to auto-based stats. Unfortunately, in League when you stealth you lose your autoattack target, so you'd basically be mashing right click on your target to counteract the stealthing (which would reveal you, nullifying the effect of the stealth). Since you'd be the one popping out of stealth the most often, this would draw a lot of attention to yourself (definitely something a carry doesn't want). The fact the shroud damages enemies encourages it to be used as a damage tool, but at a radius of 500 it starts out as being closer ranged than your basic attacks before E's bonuses. It boils down to only being effective as a retreat tool, which it excels at. Normally this would be okay, but Vash is already a very high-poke, high-range character. Even if he was slowed down, this ultimate fixes any problems he would have and simply serve to frustrate opponents further.
Alright. I'll look to change this too.

Quote:
Extra Pistol:
Final Thoughts:
  • Vash seems really conflicted, or overpowered, or both.
    His kit is a combination of ridiculously high-range poke, mobility, escape, and utility. Carries rarely get more than one or two of these things for a reason- any more makes them very frustrating to fight against. If his intent is to poke from a very high range, allow enemies to cover in brush until they can catch him out. If the intent is to be a utility carry (similar to Ashe), he definitely doesn't need all that range and poke. Pick a kit goal and begin stripping out the extra frills.
  • His abilities fit a flavor theme, but not a mechanical one.
    I like the high-tech information warfare theme, and it would go great on a utility carry or a disabler-assassin. In its current design, though, these effects are coupled with high range poke damage, which sort of defeats the purpose of utility effects: to set up for other champions.

What I Like:
  • The Q's reveal effect is interesting as a scouting tool. I would love this on a support.

Where to Improve:
  • Make sure that abilities complement each other or the character's strengths, rather than try to cover their weaknesses.
  • Focus on a goal for the kit when deciding what ideas to keep and what ones to pass on.


I'll look to do that. Thank you very much for you time. ^^


To Jefffreson


Quote:
jefffroson:
I'd be interested to see lore because I'm a little confused about how the title relates to the general look and abilities. Passive seems like something that would be better suited for a jungler with ganks. Why does e do true damage? Please consider re-working w it is to similar to Ziggs' q because of a grenade that bounces 3 times.
Overall good job just some suggestions


Not to be insulting but it's very similar to Zigg's Q already...

Quote:
If the grenade doesn't hit an enemy in that area it will bounce up to three time or until it hits an enemy, the bomb will explode, dealing magic damage and blinding enemies within the blast radius upon hitting an enemy or after bouncing three times.


Range is similar as well.

Quote:
(Maximum casting range) 850 (Maximum total range) 1400 (Damage radius) 200


Trust me I did my homework. Also I'll be trying to get the lore on here once I've talked to moby about it. ^^


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

01-30-2013

Bump...


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OuttaControl56

Senior Member

01-31-2013

Bump


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Moby the White

Senior Member

02-01-2013

well this will take a toll on me two concepualizations in one night :S

I've done worse...let's see what we shall do...


"Dense clouds of fog rolled in across the hillside of the Runeterrean landscape, it was early morning and soon a convoy carrying Royal members of the Demacian Court would soon be traveling by. Noxian gold lined his pocket, while empty prayers breached his lips. Vash knew that his target would soon arrive, but he also regretted the pointless killings that he was paid for. Sought out by the agents of Noxian Hand the former agent of the Black Rose was willing to take on a new occupation, but only for a price. As a caravan approached up the hillside he readied his pistol, prepared for a quick and easy slaughter. As he sprung into the clear smoke rose up around the targetted caravan masking his approach in utter stealth. But as he unholstered his weapon and opened the door the only thing Vash seemed to be aiming at was air. Only one explanation could explain this treachery, a desperate trap laid by the Noxians in order to capture one of Zaun's most elusive mercenaries. He quickly turned around, only to face a squadron of guards pointing rifles at him as he stood so precariously upon the stoop of the carriage. The forces took Vash prisoner and hauled him to the Noxian Council lead by the nefarious tactician himself. It seemed the council actually admired his skillset and was purely acquiring his services on the battlefields. A final offer was made to Vash, fight for the Noxian forces on the fields of Justice or die. Vash saw his life as something worth keeping, and decided to play along with Noxian games...for now..."


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

02-02-2013

That's actually a pretty good first draft but it's not very long. It could use a little more if that's alright with you. ^^


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Moby the White

Senior Member

02-02-2013

Quote:
Cryoshell17:
That's actually a pretty good first draft but it's not very long. It could use a little more if that's alright with you. ^^


O_O it's not very long?