Thresh's "The Box" needs to snare

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Adrian Umbra

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Senior Member

01-28-2013

I agree that the 99% slow is rediculous. Minimum MS is high enough that it only ever gets down to 70% or so. A root would be far closer to what I assume the intent was, with 50% slows on anyone who breaks extra walls.


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GurkenMAN

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by kavinh the third View Post
veigar's e is a 2.5 second stun similar aoe and on a normal skill making it alot easier to spam up to cast every small fight. in comparison thresh's ult is completely UP at least giving him the root would make it better since then they can't flash.
Oh wise Kevin. Give us insight and compare the other skills/passive/basestats! Or just gtfo


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Vuther

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peligrad View Post
You're right...because Veig doesn't get any free AP. He doesn't get armor/level either....
Veigar has to last-hit and spend mana with Q to do it while putting a source of damage on cooldown, and Thresh needs 94 souls to match the highest innate armour at level 18 in the game while discounting abilities, which I hear is hardly out of the picture to obtain.

Thresh also may use another CC and a shield to save himself while Veigar really doesn't want people to QSS his E ever.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Better to compare it to Amumu's ult. They are both AoE movement disablers, but Amumu's covers a considerably larger AoE, is guaranteed to hit everything within it's AoE, roots rather than slows, prevents AAing, and inexplicably has a lower cooldown at later levels. The Box has much higher damage and a lower mana cost at higher levels but is otherwise worse in every way. Considering Thresh isn't meant to be a damage powerhouse this seems odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuther View Post
It also does no damage, doesn't scale with AP and Veigar dies instantly to everyone and everything without it while Thresh has a fair bit more beef and gets free AP while utilizing his passive, though.
There's also a large difference expected in the effectiveness of an ultimate compared with a regular ability. Viegar's would still be stronger CC, have a longer duration, have a far shorter cooldown and can be cast at range. By no means would 'the box' be strictly better than 'event horizon'.


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Viamont

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Member

01-28-2013

i tink thresh ulti should actually srking in size the moment its casted (like a trap, moving towards the center wich would be thresh)...i cant count the amount of times people just keep still in the middle of the ulti and pretty much ignore it with little effort, that aside the damage its great altought the cool down its pretty big


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Vuther

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfidiousAlbion View Post
There's also a large difference expected in the effectiveness of an ultimate compared with a regular ability. Viegar's would still be stronger CC, have a longer duration, have a far shorter cooldown and can be cast at range. By no means would 'the box' be strictly better than 'event horizon'.
There is a large degree.

The latter does a lot of damage.

Cooldown is also pretty difficult to gauge, because I mean, look at a bunch of ultimates. Garen's spin at level 9 comes quite close to Wukong's ultimate at level 11 in damage per second and the latter costs mana while the former has a nine-second cooldown, yet Wukong's still wins, because the added CC, movement speed boost, extra second and ability to gap-close helps out Wukong's ultimate a lot. Veigar's E may provides more CC and be cast more often than Thresh's, but it's all the little guy (RIP Vuther) has outside of his damage while Thresh is usually more durable (unless Thresh has been stuck in a frozen 1v2 lane for the last 20 minutes I guess) and has other utility to be useful.

Thresh's ultimate also has some ability to hit again on a target with 50% effect, but I'd imagine it'll take a bit longer before his players can do it with some degree of consistency.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuther View Post
There is a large degree.

The latter does a lot of damage.

Cooldown is also pretty difficult to gauge, because I mean, look at a bunch of ultimates. Garen's spin at level 9 comes quite close to Wukong's ultimate at level 11 in damage per second and the latter costs mana while the former has a nine-second cooldown, yet Wukong's still wins, because the added CC, movement speed boost, extra second and ability to gap-close helps out Wukong's ultimate a lot. Veigar's E may provides more CC and be cast more often than Thresh's, but it's all the little guy (RIP Vuther) has outside of his damage while Thresh is usually more durable (unless Thresh has been stuck in a frozen 1v2 lane for the last 20 minutes I guess) and has other utility to be useful.
It's rather amusing that you reference Wukong/Garen considering Wukong's ult is better than Garens Judgement in every way except for cooldown and mana cost. Conversely Veigar's CC is actually better than The Box in every way except for damage. Thankfully The Box does a considerable amount of damage, so it's not unreasonable, but where Cyclone has a strictly superior effect to Judgement, The Box actually has a great many deficits compared with Event Horizon.

Personally I think the comparison between the two abilities is strange given that Amumu's ult makes far more sense to compare with. But if we are going to do said comparison then I'm not at all certain that The Box compares favourably to Event Horizon given that one is an ultimate and the other a basic ability. The simple fact that Event Horizon has a cast range is a huge advantage, in that Veigar can stun someone more than 1000 range away. A tank walking through it doesn't break it. A 2.5sec stun is far stronger than a 2 sec slow, no matter the slow's strength. If the box wasn't broken when triggered by an enemy and/or didn't have a reduced effect when hitting multiple targets I would agree that it's sizable damage was enough justification for it being a high cooldown ult, but it's only a mediocre AoE (275+.5AP and ~50% slow for 2 sec) on any target after the first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuther View Post
Thresh's ultimate also has some ability to hit again on a target with 50% effect, but I'd imagine it'll take a bit longer before his players can do it with some degree of consistency.
You're mistaken on this. Enemies can only be affected by one wall, though they'll still break any future walls they come in contact with. It's only additional enemies after the first that take a reduced effect. As such you very much don't want to hit a target with more than one wall as it functionally reduces The Box's AoE. Additionally it means a tank can clear out much of your ult to the benefit of the their team.


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Fluffy1

Senior Member

01-28-2013

a chamption with 2 knockback style moves and you want to give him more hard CC????


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DingoHedge

Senior Member

01-29-2013

I'm confused. Most bruisers DO take the dmg and slow when they use a gap closer to go through it. Clearly certain moves, such as the aforementioned Zed Shadow, can avoid it, but considering those that can go through it can simply be knocked right back into it with his E, i think it's fine.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

01-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DingoHedge View Post
I'm confused. Most bruisers DO take the dmg and slow when they use a gap closer to go through it. Clearly certain moves, such as the aforementioned Zed Shadow, can avoid it, but considering those that can go through it can simply be knocked right back into it with his E, i think it's fine.
His E's knockback is tiny, functioning more as an interrupt. You are extremely unlikely to be able to knock someone back into a wall even if you time it just as they finish their blink. Considering someone can just stay inside the Box and take no damage, a tank can blunder through your walls effectively countering your ult, and everyone and their dog takes flash I think The Box has enough counters. Considering the relatively small difference between a root and a 99% slow it's not a huge buff.


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