Talon is really hurting now

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JacierRigorma

Junior Member

01-21-2013

Since the recent update Talon's damage on both his ult and Q was nerfed and Roit justified this partially by a bug fix but, I've been Playing him a long time, my first champ really, and he is really hit low now. He mainly excels in lane against Range mages with little durability and his damage is best when concentrated which made him a useful and adept mid. Now after his nerf in a game I just ran midding VS Anivia and I used every ability on her and was still far from taking her down. People tend to argue that he was two strong in team fight but he never really was. Katarina is the one with an ult made for hitting champs talon's is pretty weak (now very weak) when divided up. It really makes me sad to see such a nice champ lose his power in lane.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

01-21-2013

1. Most, if not all, Talon players maxed Rake first, meaning your Q is only missing 8 damage while laning.
2. His ultimate only lost base damage at later levels, so you only notice the nerfs if you bought a ****load of AD early.
3. His E is WORKING now, so he can still do the same, actually more, damage to a single target than before.


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Kynah

Junior Member

01-21-2013

I think talon did get nerfed too much, his ult needs a buff as it is outclassed in teamfights by kat, fiddle, etc. i used to play talon alot and laugh at lux-free weeks where they go mid with ignite+ clarity, and *EVERY*time, kill them at level 4, his q feels much too weak now too


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JacierRigorma

Junior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
1. Most, if not all, Talon players maxed Rake first, meaning your Q is only missing 8 damage while laning.
2. His ultimate only lost base damage at later levels, so you only notice the nerfs if you bought a ****load of AD early.
3. His E is WORKING now, so he can still do the same, actually more, damage to a single target than before.
Not Being rude but have you played him? Yes rake is an early max but not the only key cutthroat is what keeps the mages in check and im glad for the bug fix don't get me wrong but there is really just too much emptyness as far as the ult. the noxian diplomacy doesn't bother me so much but as far as full landed ults for an assasin character his is now weak making it hard edr to take down quite a lot.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacierRigorma View Post
Not Being rude but have you played him? Yes rake is an early max but not the only key cutthroat is what keeps the mages in check and im glad for the bug fix don't get me wrong but there is really just too much emptyness as far as the ult. the noxian diplomacy doesn't bother me so much but as far as full landed ults for an assasin character his is now weak making it hard edr to take down quite a lot.
Yeah, I played him. Sadly, the one full game I got, I was 2v1 against two other assassins in mid lane. Wacky comp worked cause my jungler never ganked, but my sad loss is not important.

What IS important is that Talon was already indirectly buffed by S3's new items and the change of Armor Penetration order. It's possible that he's weak, but I haven't really seen it mathematically or ingame.


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JacierRigorma

Junior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
Yeah, I played him. Sadly, the one full game I got, I was 2v1 against two other assassins in mid lane. Wacky comp worked cause my jungler never ganked, but my sad loss is not important.

What IS important is that Talon was already indirectly buffed by S3's new items and the change of Armor Penetration order. It's possible that he's weak, but I haven't really seen it mathematically or ingame.
Yeah.. i see what you mean but refer to Kynah's post.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

01-21-2013

All I saw was that he's somehow failing at killing someone in laning phase that he could kill easily before.

At level 4, having skills leveled 1-2-1, Talon would have MORE damage now than he had since the nerf, because his damage amplification is actually working, his W damage wasn't nerfed, and his Q lost almost no bleed damage.

All things considered, in theory, he should be having the same luck unless his opponent is smarter than him.


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DreadPirateLynx

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
All I saw was that he's somehow failing at killing someone in laning phase that he could kill easily before.

At level 4, having skills leveled 1-2-1, Talon would have MORE damage now than he had since the nerf, because his damage amplification is actually working, his W damage wasn't nerfed, and his Q lost almost no bleed damage.

All things considered, in theory, he should be having the same luck unless his opponent is smarter than him.
Actually I just did the math, and assuming lvl 4 talon with no runes, masteries or items with 1-2-1 skills, he does 2 less damage in his burst. Significant difference? No, but he definitely isn't doing MORE damage


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadPirateLynx View Post
Actually I just did the math, and assuming lvl 4 talon with no runes, masteries or items with 1-2-1 skills, he does 2 less damage in his burst. Significant difference? No, but he definitely isn't doing MORE damage
Huh, you're right. Fancy that, at level 4 he's missing 2 damage.

If we're ignoring Armor, that is. That damage difference is only there at 0 Armor; quite literally, at the amount of defense that 1 point of Armor gives (and btw, lowest level 1 armor is 9), there IS no damage difference.

That's while we're accounting for no runes, masteries or items. I'll concede that at 0 Armor, he lost 2 points of damage at level 4. A lot of good that does in proving your point. My point still stands; Talon should not feel any weaker until after level 11. Unless you're buying a boatload of AD, which means you're getting fed, which means you don't care that he feels slightly weaker because you're still killing.


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DreadPirateLynx

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
Huh, you're right. Fancy that, at level 4 he's missing 2 damage.

If we're ignoring Armor, that is. That damage difference is only there at 0 Armor; quite literally, at the amount of defense that 1 point of Armor gives (and btw, lowest level 1 armor is 9), there IS no damage difference.

That's while we're accounting for no runes, masteries or items. I'll concede that at 0 Armor, he lost 2 points of damage at level 4. A lot of good that does in proving your point. My point still stands; Talon should not feel any weaker until after level 11. Unless you're buying a boatload of AD, which means you're getting fed, which means you don't care that he feels slightly weaker because you're still killing.
Like I said, there is no significant difference (and as you said, none after armor), but I wanted to make it clear the he isn't doing MORE in his lvl 4 burst. Add masteries, runes and items to the equation all you want, but it will always result in lvl 4 Talon doing (insignificantly) less damage now than previously. I'm not sure at what point (if ever) the scales tip the other way and he's actually doing more damage than before.

EDIT: I just re-ran the numbers assuming that Talon has 21 points in the offensive tree, 3 AD reds (with 6 armor pen reds, my typical ad build), 3 AD quints, and a long sword (figured that was reasonable at lvl 4). Pre-nerf, Talon's burst did 336.29 damage before armor. Post-nerf his damage is 339.66 before armor. It appears that I was wrong about runes, masteries and items not tipping the scales. Either way, the difference is still insignificant and shouldn't be game changing at all.


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