Whatever is going on in player behavior department is not enough.

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Keonyn

Senior Member

01-30-2013

Maybe, but it's not like these people are a new phenomenon to this game, or any game. I mean, have you played Dota 2? Valve doesn't even pretend to show interest in getting rid of toxic players, in my experience it was far far worse.

Now, it's a bummer that this happened, but I have to say I don't experience this to this magnitude at all. In the past week I'd say I had maybe 2 games with toxic players (I do play normal though, I get tired of how seriously some ranked players take things when I'm just here to play a game and enjoy it). I know everyone is blasting Elghinn for what he said, but he's right in a sense; it's life and it's going to happen, and it's going to generally happen in any game, particularly competitive games of this nature with small teams where one toxic player can have that big of an impact.

There are jerks in the world, and it's not a problem Riot is going to magically make go away, and any system that could potentially truly solve such a problem for good would probably be so harsh and overbearing that it would probably kill the game faster than any toxic players could.


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Fistful of Force

Senior Member

01-30-2013

I do indeed play Dota 2, and I can tell you that the community is definitely nicer (at least at level 1) than the community here at 1500 rating. Seriously, you cannot say "oh, dota 2 has a worse community" and make it be ok, because that A) was never OK in the first place, and B) Dota 2 actually has a better community now.

This toxicity problem is seriously going to crush the game, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when, and it needs to be solved.


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Keonyn

Senior Member

01-30-2013

You must be playing a diferent Dota 2 then because Valve doesn't even try to weed out bad players and I encountered more toxic players and trolls in a day of Dota 2 than I see in LoL in a month. The game is also invite at this point, what do you think is going to happen when it opens to all? I can tell you this much, it's not going to get better. Plus, where do you think LoL rejects are likely going to go?

Toxicity is a problem, and it's always going to be a problem, and it's going to be a problem in pretty much any game you go to. It's not something that can just "be solved" unless you start investing in mind-control. I've been playing online games pretty much since there started being online multiplayer and I can tell you thins; toxicity is everywhere and there is no magical fantastic panacea that can fix it. You think Dota 2 will be better then good luck to you, because in my experience (and those of most I know who've gone that way) has been quite the opposite, but the grass is always greener right?


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Fistful of Force

Senior Member

01-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keonyn View Post
You must be playing a diferent Dota 2 then because Valve doesn't even try to weed out bad players and I encountered more toxic players and trolls in a day of Dota 2 than I see in LoL in a month.
I don't know what your experiences are, but so far I have seen less trolling and raging in my games of Dota than in my games of LoL. Are you sure you were not toxic in your Dota games, causing them to become toxic too? In that case, your actions would actively cause a toxic experience for you. I can practically feel the rage in your words.

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I can tell you this much, it's not going to get better. Plus, where do you think LoL rejects are likely going to go?
What about the good people who are tired of toxic players in league and swap over to Dota? Unless you give substantive proof that there will be more toxic players immigrating to Dota over good players, this is not a valid argument. Your logic is flawed.

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Toxicity is a problem, and it's always going to be a problem, and it's going to be a problem in pretty much any game you go to. It's not something that can just "be solved" unless you start investing in mind-control. I've been playing online games pretty much since there started being online multiplayer and I can tell you thins; toxicity is everywhere and there is no magical fantastic panacea that can fix it. You think Dota 2 will be better then good luck to you, because in my experience (and those of most I know who've gone that way) has been quite the opposite, but the grass is always greener right?
You lack motivation because you believe that there is no purpose in finding a solution. Inaction is not better than uncertain action, nor is it more secure. You may believe that toxicity cannot be lowered into manageable levels, but without corrective action this kind of behavior has caused the downfall of franchises as large, or larger than LoL.

Also, you have bad grammar.

I do not believe that Dota is better than LoL. I strongly believe more needs to be done to eliminate toxic behavior from solo queue.


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Keonyn

Senior Member

01-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistful of Force View Post
I don't know what your experiences are, but so far I have seen less trolling and raging in my games of Dota than in my games of LoL. Are you sure you were not toxic in your Dota games, causing them to become toxic too? In that case, your actions would actively cause a toxic experience for you. I can practically feel the rage in your words.
As I've mentioned in other threads; I do not speak in my games unless calling out an MIA or responding directly to a properly worded player concern. It's no different in Dota 2. If you feel the rage in my words than that makes me question your position from the very start since my words have no rage and I am not raging in any sense, rather making an attempt to be rational and objective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistful of Force View Post
What about the good people who are tired of toxic players in league and swap over to Dota? Unless you give substantive proof that there will be more toxic players immigrating to Dota over good players, this is not a valid argument. Your logic is flawed.
I'm sorry, but you can't simply say "something else is happening" and that state my logic is flawed while you're applying the same logic in your own argument. My proof is in what I've seen, those I've known, and even people who have raged here on these very forums and have said as much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistful of Force View Post
You lack motivation because you believe that there is no purpose in finding a solution. Inaction is not better than uncertain action, nor is it more secure. You may believe that toxicity cannot be lowered into manageable levels, but without corrective action this kind of behavior has caused the downfall of franchises as large, or larger than LoL.

Also, you have bad grammar.
Wow, so you're telling me that what I've said thus far is dripping with rage all while you then proceed to outright attack me? Who has the flawed logic again?

I don't "lack motivation", rather I accept reality for what it is. Things can be done, sure, but you're never going to counter it outright and that's just the reality of it. It's not even restricted to games, it's the nature of the internet as a whole, and almost the nature of humanity. Most games, particularly competitive ones, are going to have toxic players; even casual games on Facebook deal with people like this. Read the comments section on just about any site, be it some blog or YouTube or CNN or whatever and you'll see toxicity exists in abundance. This is the internet where people are largely anonymous and free to act like as big of an idiot as they choose and you're not going to change that overnight.

Riot certainly could implement a system that is far tougher, but the reality is that until someone is actually toxic the system can't do anything. If they start dishing out sever punishment for a few incidents then the game gets a reputation for having an overbearing system that just scares players away. Heck, Tribunal already gets accused of this, and at times I've been inclined to even agree. It's a tough rope to walk to do enough to minimize toxic players while keeping the game environment from become oppressive, and it's not nearly as easy as you think and the problem is not nearly as isolated to LoL as you believe.

Also, I couldn't care less about how you assess my grammar. However, your apparent desire to even fire that meaningless and pointless negative shot my way only demonstrates that you have some toxicity issues yourself.


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Fistful of Force

Senior Member

01-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keonyn View Post
As I've mentioned in other threads; I do not speak in my games unless calling out an MIA
Ok.
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or responding directly to a properly worded player concern.
...okay? What's this mean?

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It's no different in Dota 2. If you feel the rage in my words than that makes me question your position from the very start since my words have no rage and I am not raging in any sense, rather making an attempt to be rational and objective.
You are being very passive-aggressive. Example: "You think Dota 2 will be better then good luck to you, because in my experience (and those of most I know who've gone that way) has been quite the opposite, but the grass is always greener right?"

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I'm sorry, but you can't simply say "something else is happening"
I do not say something else is happening. I was pointing out a flaw in your logic. You say, "If A, than B". I say, "A is mutually exclusive with C, B cannot be true without A and C is true, therefore B is false.

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and that state my logic is flawed while you're applying the same logic in your own argument. My proof is in what I've seen, those I've known, and even people who have raged here on these very forums and have said as much.
You cannot use anecdotal evidence to prove a logical point.


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Wow, so you're telling me that what I've said thus far is dripping with rage all while you then proceed to outright attack me? Who has the flawed logic again?
Yes, I am attacking you. Your whole premise is that "It's human nature, so why bother?" This is wrong.

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I don't "lack motivation", rather I accept reality for what it is.
Bam, right here.

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Things can be done, sure, but you're never going to counter it outright and that's just the reality of it. It's not even restricted to games, it's the nature of the internet as a whole, and almost the nature of humanity. Most games, particularly competitive ones, are going to have toxic players; even casual games on Facebook deal with people like this. Read the comments section on just about any site, be it some blog or YouTube or CNN or whatever and you'll see toxicity exists in abundance. This is the internet where people are largely anonymous and free to act like as big of an idiot as they choose and you're not going to change that overnight.
Ok.

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Riot certainly could implement a system that is far tougher, but the reality is that until someone is actually toxic the system can't do anything. If they start dishing out sever punishment for a few incidents then the game gets a reputation for having an overbearing system that just scares players away. Heck, Tribunal already gets accused of this, and at times I've been inclined to even agree. It's a tough rope to walk to do enough to minimize toxic players while keeping the game environment from become oppressive, and it's not nearly as easy as you think and the problem is not nearly as isolated to LoL as you believe.
The difficult of effecting a change on a system should spur more effect, rather than less.

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Also, I couldn't care less about how you assess my grammar.
Grammar is important.

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However, your apparent desire to even fire that meaningless and pointless negative shot my way only demonstrates that you have some toxicity issues yourself.
True. However, to quoque. Which is to say, you too.


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Keonyn

Senior Member

01-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistful of Force View Post
...okay? What's this mean?
It means simply this; if I make rush in and end up dying and they say "Hey x, why did you rush y?" then I'll explain the action or even admit to making an error. Contrary to what some people out there think, there is nothing wrong with simply admitting you made a mistake. However, if they say "Hey x, you suck newb!" or "lol, x is ******" or even "why the **** did you dive you moron!" then I won't even justify that with a response and will simply note that player to be reported after the game.

So if they're civil I'll discuss the action or the motive or what happened, even except constructive criticism of how I'm playing or mistakes I might be making. Sometimes it takes an outsiders eyes to find your faults after all. However, if they're being a dick then I'll shrug it off, keep playing and simply let the system handle them by reporting when the game is done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistful of Force View Post
You are being very passive-aggressive. Example: "You think Dota 2 will be better then good luck to you, because in my experience (and those of most I know who've gone that way) has been quite the opposite, but the grass is always greener right?"
It's not passive aggressive; just honest. If you think it will be better then by all means play it, I see no reason for you to come here and ridicule this game, its players and the system if you've already made the decision that Dota 2 is better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistful of Force View Post
I do not say something else is happening. I was pointing out a flaw in your logic. You say, "If A, than B". I say, "A is mutually exclusive with C, B cannot be true without A and C is true, therefore B is false.
You pointed out the flaw by using the same flaw to support your own statement. It's not a flaw in my logic, but merely my viewpoint based on my own perception. Doesn't make it fact, it's just how I see it working out to this point.

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Originally Posted by Fistful of Force View Post
You cannot use anecdotal evidence to prove a logical point.
Neither can you.

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Originally Posted by Fistful of Force View Post
Yes, I am attacking you. Your whole premise is that "It's human nature, so why bother?" This is wrong.
And your attacks merely make my case since you are exhibiting that very nature. I'm not saying "don't bother", what I'm saying is that your demands and expectations for Riot to fix what is basically a societal problem are unrealistic at best, potentially problematic at worst since and overbearing system can do more harm than good and such a system would be required to actually rid the game of toxic players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistful of Force View Post
Bam, right here.
Right here what? You can't change the world man, and we're talking some deep rooted societal issues that exist not just in LoL, but everywhere, be it a game or YouTube or some other random site. You can demand Riot "fix it" until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the grand scope of the problem, or even present any actual solution to the problem. Like I've said already, this is a balancing act that can't just be "fixed" with the snap of a finger. They have to balance this issue and make sure that they implement a system that not only deals with toxic players but doesn't hinder or damage the player experience for the playerbase as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistful of Force View Post
Grammar is important.
Sure is, but I see nothing to demonstrate that you are in any way an expert on the matter that would incline me to accept your little jab as anything other than your attempt to belittle your opposition. To be honest, your grammar hasn't been perfection either, but that is of no consequence to me or this discussion since I have still be perfectly capable of understanding your statements and position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistful of Force View Post
True. However, to quoque. Which is to say, you too.
Oh yeah, I've just been firing off those attacks left and right.


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Shunkwugga

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keonyn View Post
Maybe, but it's not like these people are a new phenomenon to this game, or any game. I mean, have you played Dota 2? Valve doesn't even pretend to show interest in getting rid of toxic players, in my experience it was far far worse.
Don't suck and you won't get people that rage at you in that game.

If someone intentionally ruins a game through constant text spam, mic spam, ability misuse (teleporting you up onto a cliff) or intentional feeding, you can report and they get sent into low priority. Basically, they can still play but they don't get in with the regular players and no item drops/battle experience. They only ban people under the worst of circumstances.


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HenryKrinkle

Senior Member

01-30-2013

sometimes you gotta tell yourself: It is just a game and don't take them ELOz too seriously brah. Yes it sucks but whatever man! you get good teams, you get bad teams. all good.


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SilverLegends

Member

01-30-2013

Trolls gona happen till 1500 elo, im 1400, this happens every day to me, reporting the trolls doesnt give my elo back so I harras them back, that y i am banned now.


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