@Riot, The death of tanks.

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Irish Red Cap

Senior Member

01-25-2013

So basically I loved playing tank Jungles in season 1 and season 2. It was an important role, you were there to turn the tides of fights by providing a big meat wall or throwing out some cc to chase/hold/peel for your carries to fight. It required good game play and team-work for a true tank jungle to be an effective weapon. You couldn't go balls deep and expect to win a 1v1 or dive without the damage there.

Xin Shao has ruined that. As a tank, and most people have figured out, there is no real purpose to stacking defensive properties anymore. You need as much health as possible with some, very little compared to before, armor and magic resist. The reason I'm complaining about this is not only has it affected tanks but it flooded over and is disproportionally affecting burst mages.

The reason I picked Xin Shao as the reason for the fall out is the combination of items and his new passive have effectively made "bruiser" and "fighter" the new tank. They do damage while still building enough resistances to jump in and with little resistance destroy any carry that is caught out of position. This used to be the job of assassins, to dive in and maul a carry while bruisers and tanks would peel for the carries to try and stop the assassins or initiate when needed.

With Xin Shao it's beyond simple, build Black Cleaver and Last Whisper. 2 Items, Not very expensive when compared to the amount required by others to reach their peak but anything after those 2 items is an immediate bonus on Xin. You can pretty much do whatever you want after those two items because with only those two items Xin Shao disregards 15% + 25% + 35% of a persons armor... that's 75% of someone's armor out the window before you even bother with his flat armor pen and 40% ripped to shreds for his teammates to enjoy. It's just beyond disgusting because with that amount of % armor missing he can build less hp/armor/mr and be tankier than a champion designed to do nothing but tank.

Even with Rammus, someone who excels in having a massive, masssssivvveee amount of armor is reduced to nothing but a lower-damage bruiser by this 1 champion alone. I use Xin as an example because of his 15% armor shred passive, but even with other champs it's not hard to build BC and LW and still ignore 60% of someone's armor like it is nothing. Seriously Riot why would you purposefully take the strongest classes in the game and make them even stronger for S3 while disproportionally affecting tanks and burst mages in a negative way.


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Irish Red Cap

Senior Member

01-26-2013

bump


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Nyx Warframe

Member

01-26-2013

Complain more....It's balanced, Tanks stack health now.


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Bodhi2012

Member

01-26-2013

Health is OP try it noob.


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Skellyton22

Senior Member

01-26-2013

He is right. With APs being out classed, I know one Example is AP Ez. There are more reasons for this but one of the killers in S3 is the new iteams.

And people who say "Health is the new thing" don't really understand how important counter play is.


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Irish Red Cap

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skellyton22 View Post
He is right. With APs being out classed, I know one Example is AP Ez. There are more reasons for this but one of the killers in S3 is the new iteams.

And people who say "Health is the new thing" don't really understand how important counter play is.
Thank you for actually understanding. Health doesn't mean **** when you have an ADC who can crit you like a monster for 800+ a hit no matter what armor you build. You can only get so much HP unless your Cho'gath with 5 warmog's. It used to be 5 AD per team was a joke troll comp but now you can see 3-5 AD per game like it's the norm. It's disgusting but while HP + minor armor doesn't affect ADC's HP + minor MR completely shuts down mages of all kinds.

Another champ that prooves this, Vi. Her W passive shred 30% armor, 30% + 25% + 35% is 90% of a person's armor, now the 35% is anyone who builds LW but that's still 55% for every ADC and bruiser who doesn't have a LW.


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JustMyBassCannon

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Senior Member

01-26-2013

Xin Zhao is not "the new tank" at all. He's a fighter as well as an assassin. He's designed to do well early game, aka killing people for gold/xp advantage. If he builds more damage, he'll die quickly. If he builds more defense, he'll be less effective late game (MUCH less, considering how much he scales with offensive stats).

Next thing wrong; Xin+Cleaver+Whisper is effectively 59% of Armor shred, not 75%. Multiplicative. And while that's a lot, that's literally pure focus on trying to kill someone with much more armor than any other stat. Notice how those items only give 95 AD on top of that shred? No AS, no Crit, just AD. Xin's hoping you can't kick him away for his 5 second steroid because otherwise his build has **** for AS.


And Rammus is a horrible example champion to use right now.


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Aroph

Member

01-26-2013

I literally see AP carries building Rylai's and other HP/AP Hybrid items and can survive a huge **** ton of things while having enough AP to do incredible damage.


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Irish Red Cap

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
Xin Zhao is not "the new tank" at all. He's a fighter as well as an assassin. He's designed to do well early game, aka killing people for gold/xp advantage. If he builds more damage, he'll die quickly. If he builds more defense, he'll be less effective late game (MUCH less, considering how much he scales with offensive stats).

Next thing wrong; Xin+Cleaver+Whisper is effectively 59% of Armor shred, not 75%. Multiplicative. And while that's a lot, that's literally pure focus on trying to kill someone with much more armor than any other stat. Notice how those items only give 95 AD on top of that shred? No AS, no Crit, just AD. Xin's hoping you can't kick him away for his 5 second steroid because otherwise his build has **** for AS.


And Rammus is a horrible example champion to use right now.
59%? I think your math is badly off. Xin with BC LW can build tanky and initiate for his team. As I stated, FIGHTERS/BRUISERS have become the new tanks. There is no reason to play a full tank anymore when you can grab a fighter or bruiser and do MORE damage based entirely off kit while still being tanky enough to jump into a fight and force people to focus you or their carries will pay.

Rammus is the epitome of a tank. A taunt, an AoE, armor/MR boost, and a disrupt. How he is a horrible example? I can still play rammus and still do what tanks do he just lost his FoTM status a while back and people don't want to play him anymore. Difference is even with all of Rammus' armor boost from his def curl I can still stack hp and be shredded by an ADC who hits me. Conversely I can do the same with Rammus and laugh as a mage burns his entire kit on me and doesn't take 10% of my hp. They disproportionally lowered tanks and mages while beefing ADCs, Bruisers, and Fighters. Assassins still have their role as burst damage but you even see Assassin's building HP now to cover for the fact that if they jump in they get melted in 1 second from the amount of damage any of the 3 mentioned above can throw out even while having less resistances built and less damage.


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Vuther

Senior Member

01-27-2013

I don't think we're quite in the right place yet, but something needed to be done about absolutely everyone ignoring AD casters with but a single Chain Vest and so far that has been fixed.

The towerdiving was a bit too easy with that also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteHatCracker View Post
Rammus is the epitome of a tank. A taunt, an AoE, armor/MR boost, and a disrupt. How he is a horrible example?
By design, he kinda is in teamfights.

In practice, no one wants to use him because of his numbers and how that makes everything before the teamfights highly difficult to play, and this has been the case for a very long time before the pre-season.


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