Win early, lose late

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Cauldrath

Senior Member

01-27-2013

At low elo, this is the process:

Team 1 wins windmill.
Team 2 slams its face into windmill again and again until the respawn timer advantage allows them to take it.
Team 1 slams its face into windmill again and again, but never wins because they never get respawn advantage.

So, it's either that one team wises up and breaks the cycle, team 2 falls apart because their team obviously sucks because they can't win an otherwise even teamfight under an enemy tower, or the team that lost the windmill fight wins. A bit oversimplified, but mostly true. When I get into a game like that, I try to just farm minions and the bot laner so that I'll be most effective when it matters and hope noone afks on my team in the meantime. The best is when you get a really clean gank off just as someone was complaining about how much the team sucks because they couldn't win a 3v4 under the enemy windmill.


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LightEntite

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzzled View Post
Or at the very best it becomes too close for comfort

This happens almost every time I get an early lead. If the score is, say, 360-50 in our team's favor, the other team somehow magically manages to come back and they either win or we win by a very small point margin

Is this because of the respawn timers so the other team can just outlast us? It's incredibly frustrating that you get punished BY PLAYING WELL

You aren't getting punished for playing well. You're being punished for not ending the match.



Winning lanes doesn't win the game. Destroying the nexus does. If your team is farming and getting buffs but are inable to push and beat the enemy team, then you are simply outplayed.


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Chavez Obama

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightEntite View Post
You aren't getting punished for playing well. You're being punished for not ending the match.



Winning lanes doesn't win the game. Destroying the nexus does. If your team is farming and getting buffs but are inable to push and beat the enemy team, then you are simply outplayed.
Troll grade: 8/10

Believably executed, but didn't inject anything beyond the basics.


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LightEntite

Senior Member

01-27-2013

: (


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fck w da mixtape

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
Everyone with this complaint seems to ignore the point where if a team was unable to hold nodes due to faster respawns, eventually both teams are equal again. The 'winning' team should be able to seal the victory if they are indeed 'better' than the enemy, as the OP implies. Unless of course they have a significant team comp disadvantage (ie. weak late game champions) which is not the fault of Dominion, but of the players themselves.

I personally have no issue with the respawn timers as they stand. It forces both teams to play at their best for the entirety of the game, rather than riding the coattails of an early lead. I do NOT want the kind of snowballing that is present in SR and TT.
You might have a point if it wasn't for the fact that after your nexus has 100 health, dying no longer loses points on your nexus, and when the score is 350+ - <100, the losing team can essentially keep suiciding at bases because their respawn timers are around 12-14 seconds while the other teams are 24-28.

You can't even b to heal or to finish your ie or BT or bft because you can't get back in the 12 seconds it takes them to get there from their base.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by heyimgay View Post
You might have a point if it wasn't for the fact that after your nexus has 100 health, dying no longer loses points on your nexus, and when the score is 350+ - <100, the losing team can essentially keep suiciding at bases because their respawn timers are around 12-14 seconds while the other teams are 24-28.

You can't even b to heal or to finish your ie or BT or bft because you can't get back in the 12 seconds it takes them to get there from their base.
Ok...

So it's 350 to 100. The enemy team is suiciding on your windmill and eventually takes it back. It's now 350 to 90.

The enemy team 4-caps you because of their respawn advantage. At 100/90, your team takes back a point.

The score is 90/90. Neither team can reduce nexus health by dying. It's 2 nodes to the enemy's three. Team-wise, the game is now even. Like I said, unless your team has a poor late-game team composition, the better team should win. Of course if we assume equal skill, your team is at a disadvantage. I agree with that. I would argue that if the enemy is suiciding on Windmill for 250 points, they're probably not of equal skill.


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A Blind Moron

Senior Member

01-28-2013

I like the Dominion gameplay as it stands. In SR, if you lose the advantage early there's no coming back. At least in Dominion you can have a chance as long as you can outplay the enemy.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Blind Moron View Post
I like the Dominion gameplay as it stands. In SR, if you lose the advantage early there's no coming back. At least in Dominion you can have a chance as long as you can outplay the enemy.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that the comeback mechanisms be removed. As far as I know, the Dominion community appreciates that opportunity. I believe what is under discussion is how those comeback mechanisms are implemented, and identifying a solution to stop them from 'punishing' the winning team.

What if there were no adjustments to the respawn timer with point difference? What if respawns actually started out long, and gradually became shorter (globally) as the game progressed? What if the rate of nexus damage from point control was increased, and kills stopped granting nexus damage entirely?

What are some other solutions that will still leave open the opportunity for a late game comeback without putting the team that gains a lead at a disadvantage? In other words, how do you create opportunities for the losing team without directly debuffing the winning team?


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A Blind Moron

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
What if there were no adjustments to the respawn timer with point difference? What if respawns actually started out long, and gradually became shorter (globally) as the game progressed? What if the rate of nexus damage from point control was increased, and kills stopped granting nexus damage entirely?
If respawns started out long, whichever team won the opening fight at the windmill would have too great of an advantage. Increased point control damage only makes the game shorter overall. Kills granting Nexus damage doesn't seem to be an issue - if it ain't broke...

Any team that plays the objectives instead of running around for kills and throwing the game will win if they're the "better" team. If your team has a solid advantage until late in the game and then they throw it by making mistakes, that's the fault of the players, not the game devs.


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Chavez Obama

Senior Member

01-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightEntite View Post
: (

Sorry, just struck me like talking about SR. You can farm and get buffs on this map, but it won't make quite te difference that it would there .

In an ideal setting, one would lose the game or win the game based on the team's play. There are certain rules to the game. The question then becomes, what do we want the rules of the game to be?

Right now, you basically want a team that heavily emphasizes late game for greatest guarantee of success. If you fall behind, you will get some rubber banding to help you. Is this what we want? It's not a bad thing necessarily. From what I understand, it is why support carry lanes took over kill lanes with bruisers. Along with maximizing gold efficiency, if your lane fails you can fall back on outscaling.

I disagree with the way this has been executed on this map IF it is meant to be a competitive mode. Rubber band mechanics are often incorporated in games that are meant to be casual ( think Mario party and Mario kart mechanics ). It can help keep games close and therefore more exciting.

If other games had respawn mechanics similar to dominion, it would most likely make them less competitive, since it introduces awkward rules (respawn window) and helps the loser catch up through nothing that they did on their own.

Now, dominion can't simply chop these mechanics out without other changes, otherwise early teams would just control the map and 5 cap eventually.

What can be done? I can make another post later on my thoughts. Hard to type on a mobile.


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