The Heimerdinger Resistance

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findog

Junior Member

02-14-2013

Bump for heim


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sleepisdeath

Senior Member

02-16-2013

bump


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Muppetron

Member

02-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pryotra View Post
I honestly don't believe he is innately bad. I think he is innately complex, so that if used intelligently, he is strong, but not intelligently, he will feel weak. However, if you buff him so more players can play him, those that know how will annihilate any and all opposition.

Yes, his base stats are not the top, but his kit is actually rather good. Remember how they nerfed Zyra's base stats because they were too high? Same reasoning here for why Heim's are low. Actually, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Heimer in a tie for slowest ms with both Anivia and Zyra?

Heimer was actually helped in the s3 changes, because health stacking never really hurt heimer, while MR did. He also has great utilization of the grail, and really enjoys the new armor part of Hourglass. grab a legion item, and you are pretty tanky, and can start thinking damage. Best part? If you do need the health, all you need is Rylai's. NO NEED FOR WARMONGS ON HEIM.

All in all, his abilities are hard to use, but once learned you become incredibly powerful in comparison. I wouldn't mind a slight HP scaling (i'm talking tiny, like .05 or less off of heims HP, so if someone managed 3000 hp on heim would equate to 150 hp, or a carry/bruiser auto attack.) but honestly anything more would be overkill. I already have at the very least a 75% stun rate when I try without the ult. Anything that would make that easier would make people cry.

@ OP, Heimer was mentioned by morello a couple times in this thread:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3118000
Not really about Heimer, but alot of things were discussed.

Hes not powerful at all. He can hang until end game if the team isn't feeding. If your team is feeding its pretty much game over. Hes too dependent on items and the success of your team. Even with a full build hes not strong enough unless you are absolutely smashing the other team. But if both sides are even you virtually become irrelevant late game/

Using HeimerDinger smarty only goes so far. I can setup up ambushes,etc but by end game those turrets are a mockery and his ULT will virtually do nothing.


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Pryotra

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Senior Member

02-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muppetron View Post
Hes not powerful at all. He can hang until end game if the team isn't feeding. If your team is feeding its pretty much game over. Hes too dependent on items and the success of your team. Even with a full build hes not strong enough unless you are absolutely smashing the other team. But if both sides are even you virtually become irrelevant late game/

Using HeimerDinger smarty only goes so far. I can setup up ambushes,etc but by end game those turrets are a mockery and his ULT will virtually do nothing.
Then you clearly don't really play the Dinger.

In lane, you are a bully. You can safely push, and post six, ganks on you actually have the possibility of getting you fed, so long as you use your turrets well. Positioning them just behind you while you push so that if you get ganked, the turrets will immediately take action, which you can enforce with a nade+rocket to the face, pop your ult, and kite around your towers. If you did it right and they have a brain, they leave and go b at once. and even then, you still might get the kill. Your pushing should punish the enemy jungler as much as the opposing laner, as farming under the tower, and forcing the jungler to camp you allows your jungler to out level that jungler easier, as well as give other lanes support. It also should prevent the enemy laner from ganking, as they could lose their tower if they leave.

To be fair though, if your team feeds, most champs aren't going to win at all, while Heimer has the option of split pushing hard to win. It's why I always run tele on him, because if all else fails Heimer still has the option of winning through objectives, and even if things go well, tele is never really bad. His ult is actually perfect if used correctly, but it means you need to make the most of ALL your abilities. Your turrets need to be in range of enemy champs, and your rockets need to be either up, or almost up, and you need to be in range of at least 3 champs. As for your nade, I only use it during the ult when it would throw them off during their attempt to dodge.

As for his turrets, they really aren't bad if you know how to position them well. It really depends on the situation when it comes to how you should use them, but let me outline some basic turret positioning tips.

1)The Escape Plan: pretty self explanitory, set them up behind the front line so that you have an escape route to take if things go south. Save your ult till the enemy tries to chase you through them, and just poke from the turrets as best you can. They shouldn't be so far from the front lines that your team can't quickly retreat to them, but too close and they may eat the crossfire. Use when the enemy is greedy, or if the enemy team prioritizes your turrets.

2)The Forward March: This involves using either Fog of War, situational placement, or Bushes to get your turrets close to the front line, but in a way where the enemy is caught off guard by the excess damage. An example that can work is during those teamfights in the river. If you are the team that claimed the river before the other team got their, go ahead and set up a turret in the bush, and another when you are about to be engaged. Or if you are teamfighting under one of their weaker towers, throw down your turret BEHIND their tower, and so long as a champion has the towers aggro, your turrets are free to chomp down on the tower, and support your team during the fight.

3)Engi-Ops, behind the enemy lines: One position that most don't consider is actually to cut off the enemy escape path with your turrets. It's pretty unexpected, and it can be used to better bait enemy champs as they will see anyone heading towards them to be so far out of position that they are "easy pickings", and will chase them harder than singed. If set up right, then a good push against the enemy will send them into your nest. This position is much harder to do well, so it really depends on the situation. Also, using tele on wards in the jungle can make this easier.

Note: Don't just throw down a turret to throw down a turret, you never know when a turret that is in a weird place gets you a kill because a low Health Enemy chooses to use that bush to B. If you can put a turret in a good position, then consider it, but if not, don't place a turret until you have a good position for it. If AoE is the issue, then place them further apart, if that is not an issue, then closer together might be better to allow them to better protect each other.

Also, Heimer is a good champ for Oracles, as he can not only hunt wards well, but champs like akali get decimated if Heim can remove the stealth factor quickly. He can also start to "own" bushes with the efficiency of Teemo if he hides his turrets in them, which mid to late game you should be doing more of anyways, if only to give your turrets more time to do damage. Late game I start doing lots of warding, and only have a 5 item build so as to have a slot that I fill with pinks, grabing elixers if I have the money. You can't be useless if you have an Aura (passive, and if you picked up an aura like legion even better) and are keeping the map awareness high, not to mention you are all the pushing power your team could ever need.

In the end, Heimer is a champ that is a AP Seige machine, he pushes FAR better than any other champion due to his turrets, so do so whenever you have a numbers advantage, or simply start a big minion wave in a separate lane before teamfights. This alone can ensure victory.

Heimer is also a champ that you either know well, or you don't. Similar to say, Poppy. Good Poppies know her limits, and can usually win with her despite her terrible early game. Bad poppies tend to feed alot early, and it's obvious to everyone that the person doesn't know the champ as well as they could. Good Heimers have turrets in great positions, so they don't instantly die, and land alot of stuns without their ult, and everyone can see that they know the champ when they split push 2 towers down while the other team is occupied/dead. Bad Heimers tend to push randomly, only ever land the stun maybe once outside of the ult, if ever, and have a very short lifespan on their turrets due to bad positioning.

If you need help with turret positioning, I would actually recommend looking at TF2 Engineering videos for the concepts, as it actually goes over the basic concepts of the turret pretty well, especially positioning. If you want further help, add me in game, and ask me, I can go into a custom with you and work it out with you. Also, I am considering making a video guide, as there is alot to go over, not easily translated into words. Anyone interested?


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sleepisdeath

Senior Member

02-22-2013

bump for great science


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LiquidCrack

Senior Member

02-22-2013

just one more turret...


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Whyumai

Senior Member

02-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepisdeath View Post
well i linked your thread in mine too because i thought it was one of the most important threads for heimer that underlined the sheer madness on riots side for letting him rot 2 years without even touching him. so do as you please but i would suggest to bump all heimer related threads.

im very confident that when xyph starts to work on him it will be great. each single one of his champs is a masterpiece from my point of view. so lets not let them forget what they owe us heimer lovers.
anything would be better than what Heimer is currently.


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karabol13

Senior Member

02-22-2013

Bump for Heimy <3


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Camen Sieder

Senior Member

02-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pryotra View Post
Then you clearly don't really play the Dinger.

In lane, you are a bully. You can safely push, and post six, ganks on you actually have the possibility of getting you fed, so long as you use your turrets well. Positioning them just behind you while you push so that if you get ganked, the turrets will immediately take action, which you can enforce with a nade+rocket to the face, pop your ult, and kite around your towers. If you did it right and they have a brain, they leave and go b at once. and even then, you still might get the kill. Your pushing should punish the enemy jungler as much as the opposing laner, as farming under the tower, and forcing the jungler to camp you allows your jungler to out level that jungler easier, as well as give other lanes support. It also should prevent the enemy laner from ganking, as they could lose their tower if they leave.

To be fair though, if your team feeds, most champs aren't going to win at all, while Heimer has the option of split pushing hard to win. It's why I always run tele on him, because if all else fails Heimer still has the option of winning through objectives, and even if things go well, tele is never really bad. His ult is actually perfect if used correctly, but it means you need to make the most of ALL your abilities. Your turrets need to be in range of enemy champs, and your rockets need to be either up, or almost up, and you need to be in range of at least 3 champs. As for your nade, I only use it during the ult when it would throw them off during their attempt to dodge.

As for his turrets, they really aren't bad if you know how to position them well. It really depends on the situation when it comes to how you should use them, but let me outline some basic turret positioning tips.

1)The Escape Plan: pretty self explanitory, set them up behind the front line so that you have an escape route to take if things go south. Save your ult till the enemy tries to chase you through them, and just poke from the turrets as best you can. They shouldn't be so far from the front lines that your team can't quickly retreat to them, but too close and they may eat the crossfire. Use when the enemy is greedy, or if the enemy team prioritizes your turrets.

2)The Forward March: This involves using either Fog of War, situational placement, or Bushes to get your turrets close to the front line, but in a way where the enemy is caught off guard by the excess damage. An example that can work is during those teamfights in the river. If you are the team that claimed the river before the other team got their, go ahead and set up a turret in the bush, and another when you are about to be engaged. Or if you are teamfighting under one of their weaker towers, throw down your turret BEHIND their tower, and so long as a champion has the towers aggro, your turrets are free to chomp down on the tower, and support your team during the fight.

3)Engi-Ops, behind the enemy lines: One position that most don't consider is actually to cut off the enemy escape path with your turrets. It's pretty unexpected, and it can be used to better bait enemy champs as they will see anyone heading towards them to be so far out of position that they are "easy pickings", and will chase them harder than singed. If set up right, then a good push against the enemy will send them into your nest. This position is much harder to do well, so it really depends on the situation. Also, using tele on wards in the jungle can make this easier.

Note: Don't just throw down a turret to throw down a turret, you never know when a turret that is in a weird place gets you a kill because a low Health Enemy chooses to use that bush to B. If you can put a turret in a good position, then consider it, but if not, don't place a turret until you have a good position for it. If AoE is the issue, then place them further apart, if that is not an issue, then closer together might be better to allow them to better protect each other.

Also, Heimer is a good champ for Oracles, as he can not only hunt wards well, but champs like akali get decimated if Heim can remove the stealth factor quickly. He can also start to "own" bushes with the efficiency of Teemo if he hides his turrets in them, which mid to late game you should be doing more of anyways, if only to give your turrets more time to do damage. Late game I start doing lots of warding, and only have a 5 item build so as to have a slot that I fill with pinks, grabing elixers if I have the money. You can't be useless if you have an Aura (passive, and if you picked up an aura like legion even better) and are keeping the map awareness high, not to mention you are all the pushing power your team could ever need.

In the end, Heimer is a champ that is a AP Seige machine, he pushes FAR better than any other champion due to his turrets, so do so whenever you have a numbers advantage, or simply start a big minion wave in a separate lane before teamfights. This alone can ensure victory.

Heimer is also a champ that you either know well, or you don't. Similar to say, Poppy. Good Poppies know her limits, and can usually win with her despite her terrible early game. Bad poppies tend to feed alot early, and it's obvious to everyone that the person doesn't know the champ as well as they could. Good Heimers have turrets in great positions, so they don't instantly die, and land alot of stuns without their ult, and everyone can see that they know the champ when they split push 2 towers down while the other team is occupied/dead. Bad Heimers tend to push randomly, only ever land the stun maybe once outside of the ult, if ever, and have a very short lifespan on their turrets due to bad positioning.

If you need help with turret positioning, I would actually recommend looking at TF2 Engineering videos for the concepts, as it actually goes over the basic concepts of the turret pretty well, especially positioning. If you want further help, add me in game, and ask me, I can go into a custom with you and work it out with you. Also, I am considering making a video guide, as there is alot to go over, not easily translated into words. Anyone interested?
I have played dinger off and on since a bit after his release...

you have absolutely no idea about heimerdinger... he is one of the worst at taking towers down. His main source of turret dmg is priority focus for turrets since the last changes they made... He can push a creep wave, but just about any mid can do the same. Many common mid AP's can push it much faster than he can as well. They also collect off of your turrets...

His one strength is if the enemy is a moron you can leave a turret in lane and still collect on minions while you roam. Otherwise they just kill your turret with a single ability and couple auto attacks and take your tower. Then trying to farm is a nightmare. You might as well spend the next 325 gold on wards trying to gain some map control...

The only way he is viable is if you run a comp around him and set up a strategy that revolves around him. otherwise it's just a matter of if you're team is ahead you'll be fine, but if you're behind and your team doesn't focus their play around heimer then it's more than likely going to end up in a loss...


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poopsockpro

Senior Member

02-22-2013

Back you dirty ape, to the front page