Shyvana, outdated?

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Cevonis

Senior Member

01-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus the Friend View Post
I believe the way to make her relevant is to buff Q and E to actually get better with levels, especially Q which barely changes at all.

How about greater and greater armor shred on E per level?
How about a triple attack at level 5 Q?
...
I like those ideas, never thought about the triple attack at max level Q, kinda like how syndra's passive works but three attacks might be a little OP maybe having the third attack deal half the usual damage while the second still do the full damage.

Level scaling armor shred on her E would make leveling her E more enticing though i feel like minions shouldn't block it, if you compare her to other champs it would be that much stronger, just make hiting the champ easier when they are in minion clumps and if you are fighting in a minion clump it would still hit the champ.

one thing that would make her ult's leap more frequent is to give her a unique item like victor and Rengar but it gives like AD and/or attack speed but the main focus would be doubling the rage gain per second.
the item would be maybe a claw or tooth from the dragon that killed her father, the item would tie in with her lore and would make her more interesting


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OmeQuicksilver

Senior Member

01-25-2013

I love Shyvana, she was one of the first champs I bought on my EU account, and one of only 3 melee champs I liked enough to buy (the others being Jax and Skarner). She was fun and quickly became my main....and then season 3 rolled along. And I noticed that while she didn't just start sucking to uselessness like Evelynn used to...she wasn't really good anymore either. Jungling became MUCH harder. Her lack of CC or reliable gap closer outside her ult started hurting alot more. And none of the new items really synergize with her at all for the most part. It quickly became apparent that yeah, she wasn't unplayably bad....but she wasn't very useful anymore, alot of champs could do everything you used to be able to do as her, alot better, and often alot sooner. I'm generally happy to come up with a 1:1 ratio as her now. She doesn't need a hard remake, she just needs a big enough one to work in season 3...


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Cevonis

Senior Member

01-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmeQuicksilver View Post
I love Shyvana, she was one of the first champs I bought on my EU account, and one of only 3 melee champs I liked enough to buy (the others being Jax and Skarner). She was fun and quickly became my main....and then season 3 rolled along. And I noticed that while she didn't just start sucking to uselessness like Evelynn used to...she wasn't really good anymore either. Jungling became MUCH harder. Her lack of CC or reliable gap closer outside her ult started hurting alot more. And none of the new items really synergize with her at all for the most part. It quickly became apparent that yeah, she wasn't unplayably bad....but she wasn't very useful anymore, alot of champs could do everything you used to be able to do as her, alot better, and often alot sooner. I'm generally happy to come up with a 1:1 ratio as her now. She doesn't need a hard remake, she just needs a big enough one to work in season 3...
Well at this rate i fear she will become what Evelynn was, i just want to play her and do well again, and not be just there. i build her health tank +atma's now, so i just soak up damage and do enough damage to be useful in team fights.

The power inflation and recent changes in S3 just hit Shyvana hard and as the power inflation get worse the weaker shyvana gets. it feels like shyvana was hit the hardest, some other champs are being effected by it too.


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Gadius

Member

01-26-2013

I just picked her up recently and I find her ganks aren't to great in the laning phase. I think her clear time is a little slower than udyrs but she has more tankyness, but perhaps less dps. I think the main thing holding her back is the items as she really needs an armor or ap build with attack speed. Jungling she's forced to go machette +5 pots, boots, treads or tabi, and then she almost has to get wriggles to keep up with the jungle and ganks.

After that it is really hard to build her with any offence and still be tanky. I think she is probably the best jungler choice if the team is mainly ap damage, as wits end becomes a nice offencive and defensive item early on but in most games the enemy will have a good 3/2 mixture making it impossible to have a decent build. Atmas or sunfire is kind of the only alternative to a heavy ad build, and it hardly fits her play style. Another early option is aegis of the legion, but it doesn't offer her any offense.

Her main problem early on is her ease of being kited, and the only solution is the phage. Problem is money is hard to come by in the jungle and she is probably better off building tanky. Another thing that doesn't work to well is building attack speed and cooldown items, unless they are heavy ap and you can fit a wit's end in. Zephyr could be an option but it is really expensive, and when you need tenacity it is much easier to go with treads. The items that could work but hardly give any synergy to her are static shyv, ghost blade, and nashor's tooth. All three of those give an extra bonus she doesn't really need; (crit chance, or ap), making them to costly to buy.

Overall I think she's an awesome character that only fills a small niche in the jungle against ap heavy teams as her build in that direction is a whole lot easier. She does fill the tanky role if built right, but has no real early game presence.


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Cevonis

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadius View Post
I just picked her up recently and I find her ganks aren't to great in the laning phase. I think her clear time is a little slower than udyrs but she has more tankyness, but perhaps less dps. I think the main thing holding her back is the items as she really needs an armor or ap build with attack speed. Jungling she's forced to go machette +5 pots, boots, treads or tabi, and then she almost has to get wriggles to keep up with the jungle and ganks.

After that it is really hard to build her with any offence and still be tanky. I think she is probably the best jungler choice if the team is mainly ap damage, as wits end becomes a nice offencive and defensive item early on but in most games the enemy will have a good 3/2 mixture making it impossible to have a decent build. Atmas or sunfire is kind of the only alternative to a heavy ad build, and it hardly fits her play style. Another early option is aegis of the legion, but it doesn't offer her any offense.

Her main problem early on is her ease of being kited, and the only solution is the phage. Problem is money is hard to come by in the jungle and she is probably better off building tanky. Another thing that doesn't work to well is building attack speed and cooldown items, unless they are heavy ap and you can fit a wit's end in. Zephyr could be an option but it is really expensive, and when you need tenacity it is much easier to go with treads. The items that could work but hardly give any synergy to her are static shyv, ghost blade, and nashor's tooth. All three of those give an extra bonus she doesn't really need; (crit chance, or ap), making them to costly to buy.

Overall I think she's an awesome character that only fills a small niche in the jungle against ap heavy teams as her build in that direction is a whole lot easier. She does fill the tanky role if built right, but has no real early game presence.
that is another side of the problem, you are forced to build tanky but then you can't do damage so if you do atma's and health then you can do some damage and be tanky enough to last but that is not her play style and i hate to build her that way.

other people pointed out other problems with her like how she has no real passive.


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watchyabackboy

Member

01-26-2013

Why not just add a stun to Q. Perhaps even stun on her ult as well. Giving her a little cc would go a long way.


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Cevonis

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by watchyabackboy View Post
Why not just add a stun to Q. Perhaps even stun on her ult as well. Giving her a little cc would go a long way.
A stun on her q would be very powerful, even OP. Think about it, a stun on her next attack? No.

the problem lies somewhere else.

-itemization is a big problem with her.

-she does not do a lot of damage mid and late game but level 1-3 she can do lots because of her Burnout

-lack of CC and any real gap closers

-ult that can be interpreted with CC though adding a stun to it, even a small one, would go a long way.

one thing that can help with itemization, since none synergize well with her would be to give her a unique item only for her like how Rengar and Victor has one. the item could add 50% to 100% rage gain and add 10-30 damage and 10-20% attack speed that improves with monster/minion kill stacks. that way it goes well with jungle and works with laneing and would help her gave a more frequent gap closer


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

01-26-2013

So much wrong in this thread.

People ganking with shyvana, people having slow clear times, people building atmas on her, people actually thinking she needs ap. No wonder you guys think she is weak.


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Cevonis

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SacredMesa View Post
So much wrong in this thread.

People ganking with shyvana, people having slow clear times, people building atmas on her, people actually thinking she needs ap. No wonder you guys think she is weak.
i dont know if your serious or sarcastic, but i'm gunna go with sarcastic.


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Anonagon

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Shyvana's E is her biggest problem. Its pretty useless. I doesn't do any damage, and since its a skillshot that can be blocked by minions, hitting your target can be real hard. It also has very little purpose when jungling.

I would prefer it be completely reworked, as a single-target nuke with some form of CC. It would need to scale off of something besides AP, something that Shy should actually build, like AD, health, or armor. By scaling it off of health or armor, she would benefit more from building tanky.

Also, I have noticed that when I use my ult on her, my enemies are not dragged the entire distance I travel. I would change it so that when Shyvana uses her ult on an enemy, they are pushed back past where Shy lands. This would make her Ganks much more effective.