It is impossible to jungle for new players.

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asmit10z

Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix0Wright View Post
Since when is dying to golems the definition of doing fine?
When I said I did fine, I ment at the start. The point is it is possible to jungle at level 1, but as secks said, it's impractical.


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SeCKS Egai

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by asmit10z View Post
When I said I did fine, I ment at the start. The point is it is possible to jungle at level 1, but as secks said, it's impractical.
Pretty much. I believe I could jungle at level 1 running cloth 5 pots, or machete 5 pots with a strong leash - but at that level, I wouldn't expect anyone to even grasp that concept.

For newer players learning to jungle the first time, at the lower levels its just a bad idea as your teammates are very unlikely to perform as needed, whether it be providing a solid leash (or knowing what that is) or handling solo top, as at those levels its almost guaranteed to be a 2v1.

Think of it this way, jungling in AI at the lower levels can significantly increase your chance of failure... That's against predictable (albeit intermediate can be very accurate with spells) opponents with programmed responses.

I would agree that jungling as a new player is very difficult, when I first started I had to learn limitations and died more than once to a golem or dragon, and that was long before the season 3 changes.

In fact, I was just in an AI game where someone was using Udyr for the first time, and he was killed by a monster I think around level 2 or 3. I'm pretty sure he was a level 30, and I would say Udyr is one of the easiest to learn to jungle with as he's probably one of 2 junglers I have currently that can get through his first route relatively safe without going through the 5 pots. Yet even at level 30 one can fall to a monster in the jungle.


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Yajin

Senior Member

01-25-2013

I'd never recommend jungling at low levels.

Just off the top of my head:
(most/all of this has been mentioned already)

1) You don't have enough mastery points.

2) You don't have enough runes.

3) There is a VERY good chance that your low-level teammate can't handle a 1v2 top lane (this assumes no enemy jungler). If your top lane is just going to feed nonstop, because he doesn't understand the concept of "let them push and just farm what you can under the tower while you level at least twice as fast as them" then there's little-to-no advantage to you jungling in the first place.

4) With the new, harder Season 3 jungle, you really want your team helping you get your first buff (red or blue) at the start of the game. You do not want to solo it (it's a pretty big setback). Simply put, chances are that your team won't help you or, if they do, they won't know how to help you. They'll also probably complain about how they'll miss so much CS (read: may miss 2 or 3... hardly a big deal)... and then just complain later on--after they didn't help you--that you're not ganking enough. It's typically just a big frustrating mess.

5) Your team, in general, is probably not very good and certainly not experienced enough to know how to setup and/or secure ganks, with a jungler. This will be balanced somewhat by the enemy team not knowing how to deal with your ganks but, even then, ganking is really a team effort. Unless you just get super-fed (or the other team is awful), you're going to need help killing stuff. If that help doesn't come, you'll just spend the game wasting time failing ganks, falling behind and not really helping all that much.

6) There's a good chance that your inexperienced team doesn't know how to take advantage of the advantages you give them. If your gank attempt fails to kill anyone but it forces the enemy to teleport out to heal, that should be a huge win for your lane ("free" CS and EXP for a while, helping to snowball the lane). If your stupid teammates decide to push all the way to their tower, though (because, hey, there's no one there!!!) and then get themselves killed (open to a gank, low'ish hp/mana from prior battle, being dumb and getting hit by tower, etc.), your jungle pressure basically just helped the other team, because your teammates are morons.

This one especially bothers me, honestly. I haven't gotten into ranked yet (waiting until I can play every role respectably well with 2-3 champions, in an effort to be placed as far from "ELO Hell" as possible) but, with normal games, the number of people who don't understand the concept of don't push your lane is astounding. People have absolutely no patience. DO NOT CLEAR A WAVE JUST BECAUSE THERE'S NO ENEMY PRESSURE FOR THE MOMENT. (unless you're pushing to tower to attack the tower or deny your enemy exp). Just keep last-hitting and do your best to keep your lane frozen. FAR too often people push to the enemy tower for no reason and then get themselves killed. It's ridiculous... then they blame the jungler for not ganking enough... as though the jungler can hit anyone without having to dive, at that point.

Also frustrating is when people equate "the enemy isn't directly under his tower" with "the lane is not pushed." Look, if the other guy can get back to his tower's safety in less than 2 or 3 seconds, your lane is more or less ungankable, without tower diving. For that matter, try to learn what popular champions do.

Don't spend the whole match complaining about not getting ganks on a (often full-HP) Nidalee. It's Nidalee. You're not killing (or likely catching) her without some fairly-significant teamwork and, if she's full HP and warding properly (she'll have traps down, at the very least), goodluck getting anywhere close to her.

But now I'm off on tangents and ranting.

Point is that jungling early on is not a great idea. Even if you're a great jungler, if your team can't capitalize on that, there's really no point to it because, in the end, you probably won't even "break even" (compared to just going top with someone else).

Honestly, if anything, if you want to practice "jungling" pre-30, PLAY HIGH-MOBILITY MIDS. Champions like Katarina, Ahri, Leblanc and Diana (amongst others) excel at roaming to top and bottom lanes for ganks. They also tend to poke into the jungle, between waves, to pick up some more CS (don't steal from your jungler though!). By focusing on mid, you can very-much get the "feel" of jungling without full-out committing to it.

Goodluck!



Oh and bonus point regarding the "learning jungling as mid" thing: with mid, you always have your lane to fall back on. If you roam to another lane to gank, and fail, it's not a big deal. Just go back and farm that creep wave that's waiting for you. With jungling, especially when you're learning, if you screw up, it's very easy to fall behind to the point of being worthless for the rest of the game (depending on who you're playing, anyway... though most junglers tend to *need* to get ahead). Not only is this discouraging but it's frustrating like you wouldn't believe.

I'd recommend maybe focusing on mids or tops that can also jungle well (AP Yi, Lee Sin, Diana, Olaf, Malphite, Jax, etc.) and then, when you have the lvls/runes to jungle, just swap those champions over to that role.


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RYP Jericho

Senior Member

01-25-2013

I'd add Talon to the above list. I tried jungling around my mid 20s with Rammus and had some trouble (wasn't getting thornmail early enough and was maxing his abilities in the wrong order).

I started to play mid with Talon and learned not only the assassin role but how to gank better.

By the time I tried jungling again (with Kha'Zix this time) I found it much easier to do properly because of my increased ganking knowledge. By no means am I ranked ready in the jungle, but I can keep from falling behind and hurting my team.


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Mothalius

Senior Member

01-25-2013

If you want a lvl 2 gank: Wolves - Smiteless Blue - Red - Gank
If you want a lvl 3 gank: Wolves - Blue - Wraiths - Wolves - Red - Gank
If you're Shaco - Put a box at Wolves at 0:45, then the rest at Blue. Wolves - Blue (no leash required) - Gank at enemy Red, after Red/kill, take Deceive at lvl 2 so you can bail out over wall into dragon if people show up.

Some helpful tips:

-Movement Speed Quints helps tons.

-Ganking through river bush works, but it's so expected that there are other things you can do. When your lane has them pushed to tower, come in from the lane behind your tower, and wait in the lane bush til the enemy lane comes back from their tower a bit. Lane :P

-Gank from tri-bush behind the enemy. They'll see you sooner cause their tower vision, but you'll likely get a kill doing this.

-A successful gank doesn't mean someone died. If the enemy pops summoner spells/ults to get away, that's successful. If you push a big minion wave to their tower and take dragon, that's successful.

-Ward dragon whenever possible to ensure the enemy jungler isn't doing the previous tip themselves.

-Counter-jungle when you can. Leave 1 small wraith, leave 1 small wolf, leave a small minion at their red/blue buffs etc.

-Another option to gank is coming in from behind the enemies tower when your minions are at it, same idea as tri-bush gank but this generally forces them through river which again, is easier to secure a kill.

-When ganking mid, it's more often than not way more successful to come behind them from inbetween river bush and wraith camp, don't just sit in river bush waiting.

-Never spend more than 30 seconds or so sitting in a bush waiting for a gank as this detracts from the laners exp, and your own. This is however something you have to gauge.

-If you're stealing the enemy jungler's Red Buff, you can drag Red Buff completely around the corner and kill him on the other side of the wall. He won't run back and regain HP. Few junglers know this and/or take advantage of this.

-If you're new to jungling, machete/5 pots is fine. Some people more experienced (who can kite jungle camps) often take cloth armor/5 pots. Depends on your playstyle/build.

If you're invading their Blue, don't just walk straight by your wraiths, straight into river and that route. If you're invading their Blue, you have two options that are more successful: Go through mid, sit in mid river-bush until 1:35 and then all go in. The other is to all sit in the river in front of dragon/baron but close to the opposing wall and then all go in at 1:52.

If you're invading their Red, again don't just walk through River and sit in the bush beside their wraiths. If invading top's Red (say they have Lee Sin, who starts at Red) go through their top tri-bush, take the TOP route, do not go straight right to Red, go top, take his Golems, and sit around that corner. (Careful though that minion waves don't give vision of your team) Then at 1:52 go around the corner for the gank. Opposite for invading bot's Red, obviously.

If you're invading, you need at least 4 team mates. Don't invade if you only have 3, unless you're very confident your lvl 1 is way stronger and you can get a kill, although this isn't advised. 5 would be ideal, of course. But 4 works.

Anyway hope this helped. Yes runes/masteries indeed help but I wanted to go over a few points that don't involve runes/masteries as this can be useful for lower level players as well.

Cheers.


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zliplus

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Senior Member

01-25-2013

Just as a further point:

If you want a lvl 4 gank: Wolves - Blue - Wraiths - Golems - Red - Wraiths - Gank/Base/Continue to Wolves.

This tends to be more for Tank Junglers who really need the Blue/farming abilities to do much of anything at the start - It keeps you in the jungle until Blue expires, and gets you to a higher level so you may actually have a needed gank ability.

Also, know what your champ is good at, and know what you (as a player) is good at. Don't try to do everything (farm, counter, gank, hold, etc).


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Kawaii Katarina

Senior Member

01-25-2013

It's practically impossible for my level 30 friend, who plays ranked--but has no idea how to jungle (oh lawdy)--to jungle, apparently. Like, really?


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Ragnalesca

Member

01-25-2013

it's possible to jungle at lower levels, it's just that the higher level you are, the less sustain your jungler needs. Jungling when smurfing with friends is a good way to carry the game, but maybe that's a bad thing? learning how to handle a duo-lane as solo top is a good thing imo.


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ilakAkali

Senior Member

01-25-2013

Xin Zhao needs no leash!


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Sorinta

Senior Member

01-25-2013

I am not low level and I have almost died with some champions the first time I tried to jungle with them. The choice of champions does play a big factor. I think even a level 1 person could jungle with warwick.


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