If Master Yi's Meditate doesn't keep him alive in teamfights, it needs to be remade.

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Borigrad

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ergheis View Post
AP Yi does not DESERVE to stay alive in teamfights. AP Yi is supposed to be a refreshing, guaranteed hit snowballer. If he was supposed to be a tank, he would be more of a sustained tank.

At the moment he's just a binary "if-you-don't-cc-the-heal-you-lose" champion. That's not fair, and if it was then we need to give single-target spellvamp to Katarina's abilities and let Swain's Snare refresh on kill.
Kat has MS and DAMAGE REDUCTION, on a refreshing cooldown. That is her sustain. Swain has consistent sustain in team fights despite CC, he has so much of it that he out sustains ignite if he has any sort of farm.

Yi is completely reliant on his team being fed, he functions as a janitor, if he goes into a fight and doesn't get a reset, he dies he will not survive the focus, especially when you had ignite and any form of interrupting CC (Which everyone has no now.) this is no different then any champion who does this. You are arguing fort he wrong mechanic to be nerfed, it's not meditate, it's RESETS. When a champion is designed around resets, there is no situation in the game for them to be truly balanced.


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Camen Sieder

Senior Member

01-24-2013

what is the point of having a heal (that sucks completely) that can easily be disrupted on a AD champ that will be using lifesteal to get back to full anyhow...

I don't see any point at all in his W being on a champ like this. Even flat HP wouldnt be worth the mana spent in the early levels...

They nerfed AP yi forcing you to go AD, so wtf is the point of his heal now? Replace it with a shield or something that is actually useful


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Galgus

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ergheis View Post
AP Yi does not DESERVE to stay alive in teamfights. AP Yi is supposed to be a refreshing, guaranteed hit snowballer. If he was supposed to be a tank, he would be more of a sustained tank.

At the moment he's just a binary "if-you-don't-cc-the-heal-you-lose" champion. That's not fair, and if it was then we need to give single-target spellvamp to Katarina's abilities and let Swain's Snare refresh on kill.
This thread is about Meditate being pointless if it doesn't buy Yi time in team-fights.

If Yi shouldn't get a skill to stay alive in team-fights, Meditate should be replaced with something with a different role.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleguac View Post
I specifically said that I had no idea how to make ad yi more viable at competitive levels. I was just responding to someone who was comparing alpha strike to a dash. I do not think giving him a true dash would solve all of his problems.

My whole point was that Yi has trouble carrying as ad because in the late game he simply cannot expect to survive team fights with a straight ad build. You basically have two options late game:
1) run in with your team and pray they don't CC and burst you. Any good team will, and you will be essentially useless
2) run in late, after the enemy team has already engaged on your team and hopefully blown most of their cc and burst. This puts your team at a disadvantage at the start of the fight, and it's still a tossup whether or not you will get bursted down before you can really start putting out your damage.
The second scenario is the most viable- you have to remember that Yi can get more damage in in a 3 second time window than everyone but a burst mage- and then it depends on how much gold Yi has.

He doesn't need long to take down a carry, and with a full build they almost evaporate.


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RoninHound

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgus View Post
Aside very niche situations, AD Yi exists as a three ability champion due to how rarely Meditate is useful.


Here are reasons it isn't very useful on AD Yi:

1. Yi's inherent frailty making him a target and the prevalence of interrupts add up to mean that he is lucky to keep it up for more than 1.5 seconds in a team-fight, and he tends to die the moment he is disabled.

2. The number of nukes that also interrupt channels make blocking damage with the skill highly unreliable.

3. With just a dab of lifesteal, Yi can restore more health by attacking than Meditating. This has the advantage of allowing Yi to still do damage, reposition, and generally not be a squishy sitting still uselessly.

4. AD Yi typically works in a very short time window in teamfights, trying to do as much damage as possible before being CC'd and focused. Meditate uses up precious time without helping against getting CC'd and focused.


To present its few strengths, I'll list some of the rare uses for Meditate on AD Yi:

1. Recovering small amounts of health when there is nothing to lifesteal. On a long cool-down.

2. While dueling the other Melee ADCs, Fiora and Tryndamere, it can help him survive their ultimates. It helps in a similar way against Kayle.

3. Karthus ult.

4. Zilean's Time Bomb.

5. Ultra-rare situations where staying alive two more seconds in a losing duel will mean an ally or turret saves you, but only if your enemy doesn't have an interrupt.


I understand that some find AP Yi's ability to heal in lane made the ability frustrating for some and led to nerfs on the PBE, but Meditate has only been a (relatively) reliable tool for keeping Yi alive in team-fights with AP Yi.

If Yi, a squishy carry who dives deep into fights, cannot use the ability to negate damage if not interrupted, what purpose does the ability serve?


I'm not calling for the ability to be kept the same, I'm asking for it to be reworked entirely if its heal function is seen as toxic where it is powerful enough to be useful.


If Riot wants the ability to help Yi survive longer in team-fights, I'd reccomend altering Meditate to work like a cancel-able Zhonyas.

With this, Yi could dodge any CC with good timing while accomplishing little if the enemy outplays him and saves their CC or uses it when not expected, giving him a skill indexed way to live longer in fights.

To preserve some of the spirit of AP Yi, they could also give such an ability a passive which would heal him on kill based on his Ability Power, but that may be superfluous.


Tl:dr

If Meditate's heal is considered toxic when it is strong enough to be useful, rework the ability rather than nerf it.
Oh yeah yi is totally underpowered and needs to get buffed. Yeah.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidgolem View Post
there's a difference between "keep you alive in a teamfight" and "Tank four dudes and an ignite with no lasting damage".
With Meditate's current design, if it isn't outhealing four guys beating on you it reads: "Stand still like an idiot while everyone beats the tar out of you."

If this is bad design, then Riot should remake Meditate.


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Gorsz

Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgus View Post
Aside very niche situations, AD Yi exists as a three ability champion due to how rarely Meditate is useful.


Here are reasons it isn't very useful on AD Yi:

1. Yi's inherent frailty making him a target and the prevalence of interrupts add up to mean that he is lucky to keep it up for more than 1.5 seconds in a team-fight, and he tends to die the moment he is disabled.

2. The number of nukes that also interrupt channels make blocking damage with the skill highly unreliable.

3. With just a dab of lifesteal, Yi can restore more health by attacking than Meditating. This has the advantage of allowing Yi to still do damage, reposition, and generally not be a squishy sitting still uselessly.

4. AD Yi typically works in a very short time window in teamfights, trying to do as much damage as possible before being CC'd and focused. Meditate uses up precious time without helping against getting CC'd and focused.


To present its few strengths, I'll list some of the rare uses for Meditate on AD Yi:

1. Recovering small amounts of health when there is nothing to lifesteal. On a long cool-down.

2. While dueling the other Melee ADCs, Fiora and Tryndamere, it can help him survive their ultimates. It helps in a similar way against Kayle.

3. Karthus ult.

4. Zilean's Time Bomb.

5. Ultra-rare situations where staying alive two more seconds in a losing duel will mean an ally or turret saves you, but only if your enemy doesn't have an interrupt.


I understand that some find AP Yi's ability to heal in lane made the ability frustrating for some and led to nerfs on the PBE, but Meditate has only been a (relatively) reliable tool for keeping Yi alive in team-fights with AP Yi.

If Yi, a squishy carry who dives deep into fights, cannot use the ability to negate damage if not interrupted, what purpose does the ability serve?


I'm not calling for the ability to be kept the same, I'm asking for it to be reworked entirely if its heal function is seen as toxic where it is powerful enough to be useful.


If Riot wants the ability to help Yi survive longer in team-fights, I'd reccomend altering Meditate to work like a cancel-able Zhonyas.

With this, Yi could dodge any CC with good timing while accomplishing little if the enemy outplays him and saves their CC or uses it when not expected, giving him a skill indexed way to live longer in fights.

To preserve some of the spirit of AP Yi, they could also give such an ability a passive which would heal him on kill based on his Ability Power, but that may be superfluous.


Tl:dr

If Meditate's heal is considered toxic when it is strong enough to be useful, rework the ability rather than nerf it.


Someone please explain why they assume YI is "frail" "squishy"??

Do you guys ever.. I mean EVER look at champions base stats to make such deductions?

HE HAS ABOUT THE SAME BASE STATS AS IRELIA/AMUMU

HE IS NOT SQUISHY.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Irelia
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Amumu
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Yi


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Galgus

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidgolem View Post
Alpha gives you a second and a half of intangibility/projectile-pop, like vlad pool or fiora's ult.
This is off-topic, but it actually doesn't pop projectiles.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wik...bility_Details


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lolCatbus

Senior Member

01-24-2013

I remember an old game when I was morg and we had an ap yi and I followed him around and shielded him in team fights for maximum healing. We were a true terror. Fun times.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorsz View Post
Someone please explain why they assume YI is "frail" "squishy"??

Do you guys ever.. I mean EVER look at champions base stats to make such deductions?

HE HAS ABOUT THE SAME BASE STATS AS IRELIA/AMUMU

HE IS NOT SQUISHY.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Irelia
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Amumu
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Yi
How tough or frail a champion is depends on the build that work on them as much as their base stats.

Yi can tank up, but he is a less effective Bruiser than other dedicated bruisers.

Yi's kit is really built for a glass cannon, all-in damage focus with perhaps a GA as his only defensive item in a full build.


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