If Master Yi's Meditate doesn't keep him alive in teamfights, it needs to be remade.

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Galgus

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Senior Member

01-25-2013

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Originally Posted by Exitusx View Post
As much as the points you bring up are true, the function of meditate was never meant to keep Yi alive in Team Fights. Even today if you look at his old tips, his mediate was intended to be used as a laning tool to keep him in the lane longer and be able to farm more and gain more experience. What WAS intended to keep Yi alive in team fights was his ability to deal incredible amounts of auto attack dps that is affected by lifesteal.

Nearly everything he does affects his auto-attack in some way, all with the exception of meditate, which is just another way for him to heal himself when he doesn't have a target, as well as having other uses like you so kindly stated. Wuju Style increases his damage by 35, 70 if he activates it, 105 if he lands a kill with Highlander and Wuju style active. His Highlander grants him ridiculous amounts of movement speed and attack speed, along with a slow immunity. Even his passive increases his overall damage by 1/7, with every 7th hit being a double hit with each strike having it's own crit chance, potentially dealing 500% attack damage if they both crit and he has an infinity edge.

He is an auto-attack based steroid champion. The only mistake people make with him is thinking that he needs more and more damage when all you really need is something to back up his steroids and make them worth something. If cc is seriously giving you trouble, you can just buy a merc treads making cc less affective on him in addition to being immune to slows. If you feel you are too squishy, he is essentially a MELEE ADC, so getting a guardian angel seriously won't hurt him, and will heavily back up any lifesteal he has.

One of the well known weaknesses Yi has is basically falling off late game if he doesn't have farm or experience. Meditate was intended to allow him to lane or jungle longer rather than having to go all the way back to base to give players a chance to counter his weakness. Be glad it has other uses as well.
GA is a good item for him once the player has enough damage built to be satisfying with it, but Meditate is very weak as a sustain skill when Yi doesn't have AP if it was made for that.

Lifestealing off something is almost always a better option unless its dangerous or impossible.

I will defend the viability of jungle AD Yi, but I have little to no faith in AD Yi in lane scenarios because his only real play is an all-in commitment to a fight, better suited to ganking than laning.


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Galgus

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01-26-2013

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Originally Posted by Oron View Post
right now it's basically a zhonyas for AP yi.

it badly needs to get ap nerfed.
The ability, as currently designed, wouldn't have any solid place in fights if it didn't act like that.

That is why I suggest that it be reworked rather than nerfed if the healing is considered toxic.


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Ripplez

Senior Member

01-26-2013

Alot has been said and I haven't been keeping track of all of it but Alpha Strike is basicly Yi's best skill. Highlander is a close second but if you think Alpha Strike is weak in any way you are truly doing it wrong. The small pause before you reappear means that you can click it and be confident you will get to the opponent a second later regardless of what they try (barring line of sight issues). The untargettability lets you evade moves and its refresh with Highlander basicly allows you (with enough mana) evade and kill people at will because stuns don't really matter when you can either a) disjoint it or b) take part of the cc during the leap itself or c) space yourself so that you aren't near people who can punish you when you come out of Alpha Strike.

People often say stuns are a hard counter to Yi. That's not true. EXCESSIVE stuns are a counter to Yi. The reason why people suffer as Yi when they get stunned is because they focus on maximising the potential of the character and not the potential to win. If you are required to buy defence, just buy it. If you are required to buy damage, just buy it. But alot of people don't recognise when to mix and match their item purchases so they get stuck all dps and dying to one stun or going tanky and not doing much. If you are smart with your build, one stun is not sufficient.

More than anything else, it's just getting focussed and killed. You might even be able to outdps 2 people but more often than not you'll be drawing the hatred of everyone on the enemy team and you usually won't outdps THAT.

Meditate in its old form was crippling towards AD Yi and it gave someone who had one skill give no utility, instead have TWO skills with no real utility. AP Yi was always the flashier way to play and the shallower way to play, I'm glad it's finally going. Riot's desire to keep the AP Yi build was what was holding him back.


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RadiantPyrophore

Senior Member

01-26-2013

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Originally Posted by doubleguac View Post
On the PBE, AD Yi's meditate is essentially getting a buff. The ap ratio is getting wrecked, but the base healing is now set to 800 at level 5, and the duration is down to 3 seconds, meaning ad Yi will be healing much more per second.

That being said, I honestly think AD Yi's problems run way deeper than meditate. He suffers from the same problems as any melee adc, only he has no dash or momentary invulnerability (like Fiora and Trynd). The only way I've seen him do even moderately well is to essentially build him like an ad bruiser, because that's the only thing that will keep him from being instantly exploded in team fights.

Even Sion has a built-in tank mechanic (although I think overall Sion is probably in an even worse spot than Yi due to how easy it is to kite him).

I honestly don't know how to fix him. Riot is notoriously bad at balancing melee adcs. Jax is the only melee carry that actually seems like he's in a good place, but he's not straight AD.
Alpha strike is effectively both a dash AND an invulnerability, only AoE can hit him. You are straight up stupid.


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RadiantPyrophore

Senior Member

01-26-2013

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Originally Posted by doubleguac View Post
It's not better than a dash because it can't be used defensively or for positioning. It helps you get to the enemy team, but that's ALL it does. It can only be used to jump to enemies. It also poops you out in an unpredictable place.

Not saying alpha strike is bad, but it lacks some of the utility of a more standard dash.
It does not drop you in an unpredictable place, it ALWAYS drops you either at the target, or at your original position if the target died before you hit it.

Second, it's also an untargetability, so, assuming you don't use it like a fool, you can easily cancel a strong nuke or CC with it.


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RadiantPyrophore

Senior Member

01-26-2013

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Originally Posted by Voidgolem View Post
Alpha gives you a second and a half of intangibility/projectile-pop, like vlad pool or fiora's ult.
The original troll ability, Troll Strike. Especially considering you can use it and land back at your origin under the right circumstances, only time will tell which troll is the strongest.


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Galgus

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01-26-2013

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Originally Posted by Dumaraz View Post
No momentary invulnerability?

Alpha-Strike Phase IS temporary invulnerability...

You cannot CC or AOE Yi during that entire process once it started...

Fiora's ult is BASED upon the same annoying code, except, her ult lasts a lot long (being that it IS an ult, that seems fair too.)

Gotta say, I don't even play Yi, but I fought against him enough to know these things, I can't imagine you either fought against a good yi, nor have played him with such an inaccurate statement-- yet, despite this MAJOR misinformation, you have 6 upvotes (i didn't vote up/nor down...).

The community's experience/ credability is rather odd.
To clarify, Alpha Strike does not pop projectiles or anything else: stuff like that simply waits for him until he comes out of it.

In lane, AP Yi can afford to dodge skillshots and AOE skills with Alpha Strike.

However, generally AD Yi and often AP Yi must make a mad dash for the enemy carries and Alpha Strike as soon as they are in range: after judging that the time is right to engage.

As such, Yi will seldom have Alpha Strike up to evade damage in the midst of a team-fight, and abilities targeted directly to him will still effect him.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

01-27-2013

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Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
thats actually what they claim to be doing, theyre lowering the duration to three seconds said a redpost
That wouldn't make it an usable skill in teamfights because the total heal amount on AD Yi isn't enough to save him.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleguac View Post
On the PBE, AD Yi's meditate is essentially getting a buff. The ap ratio is getting wrecked, but the base healing is now set to 800 at level 5, and the duration is down to 3 seconds, meaning ad Yi will be healing much more per second.

That being said, I honestly think AD Yi's problems run way deeper than meditate. He suffers from the same problems as any melee adc, only he has no dash or momentary invulnerability (like Fiora and Trynd). The only way I've seen him do even moderately well is to essentially build him like an ad bruiser, because that's the only thing that will keep him from being instantly exploded in team fights.

Even Sion has a built-in tank mechanic (although I think overall Sion is probably in an even worse spot than Yi due to how easy it is to kite him).

I honestly don't know how to fix him. Riot is notoriously bad at balancing melee adcs. Jax is the only melee carry that actually seems like he's in a good place, but he's not straight AD.
AD Yi's meditate is indeed getting better, but it's still going to be a strictly subpar skill for him. It's still not going to be particularly useful in teamfights, and that's the only situation it actually has any use. The flip side of it is that the one niche scenario that it was useful, AP Yi, is going to be massively nerfed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantPyrophore View Post
Alpha strike is effectively both a dash AND an invulnerability, only AoE can hit him. You are straight up stupid.
Untargetable and invulnerable are two very different things in this game. Yi can't be targeted when Alpha Striking but he'll eat any/all damage that was on it's way before he Q'd, and he reappears in a predictable spot. Yi also can't save his Q to attempt to avoid damage anyway, because he needs it to close distance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felaedor View Post
And Champions are not a world unto themselves.

AP Yi has always been in a similar boat to AP Rengar, AP Sion, and AP Trist, but has picked up popularity with the rising popularity of reset-on-kill mechanics.

You KNEW they were going to get nerfed, because Riot just doesn't like 1 trick ponies.

Also, the thing that makes AP Yi an exception is his ability to reset his heal. If they save 1 CC, Heal gets broken -> Alpha and a kill -> Oh look. I can either choose to Alpha again, or be full HP. Hope another CC is up!
Being a one trick pony is a disadvantage and not grounds for nerfing. Such champions get re-worked, not nerfed. Supposedly the intentions behind the current PBE Meditate have little to do with nerfing Yi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oron View Post
right now it's basically a zhonyas for AP yi.

it badly needs to get ap nerfed.
Zhonya's active makes you untargettable/invulnerable which is considerably stronger than Meditate specifically because a Zhonya's activation can't be countered. Meditate can. Meditate is much better against bad teams or low CC teams and much much worse otherwise.


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CheezCatsDc

Junior Member

01-27-2013

No, no, no. I was about to complain about how broken the heal yi has is. I was attacking him (playing as nocturne) and my partner was attacking him (ezreal) and he killed ez and then began meditating underneath our turret. The turret was blasting him and he recovered full health. I understand he had a heavy AP focus, but when two exceptional characters and a turret can't kill you because of a heal, than there is some major problems.
A good compromise would be boost up his heal power but reduce the AP effects. This way his initial heal is plenty effective while having a few AP items doesn't make him invincible.