Two Champions who meet the "anti-fun" status

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aceofsween

Senior Member

01-23-2013

So, we've heard a lot over the last year in particular about this thing called "anti-fun" champions. That is where your level of enjoyment is not proportional to the amount of fun it robs other players of the game. In that regard, there are two older champions who fit this in a variety of ways... Teemo and Singed.

We'll start with Teemo because it's pretty easy to talk about him. Teemo's mushrooms, to me, are the very epitome of anti-fun. They offer no real active engagement when used simply because of the way they behave and there is no real counterplay involved in them. However they are one of the single most frustrating things to encounter in the game. In fact, I really can't think of anything more frustrating than walking over a random mushroom placed somewhere and I can't really see how they are rewarding. Sure, it's cute every now and then when you manage to pick someone off who is low because they popped a shroom, but this isn't a regular occurrence. Far more often than not you hit someone that is at or near full hp and all it causes is utter frustration. What's worse is there really is no counterplay involved here. "Buy an oracles" and that's it, but not really... Trying to melee those shrooms can actually cause them to explode anyway.

There are two champions that have a similar trap-effect that do not behave in such a grossly anti-fun manner: Caitlyn and Nidalee. Both of these traps are visible and can be easily avoided. Teemo's could function in a similar manner with the trade-off being a much larger activation range and persistent vision of the area after detonation for a few seconds.

On to Singed...

There are two options for counterplay with Singed: burst him down immediately or avoid engaging on him. Without a hard CC to lock him up, the chances that you'll actually be able to bring him down are pretty slim too. For me, his poison trail is the real culprit. Chasing Singed is simply a mistake in almost all cases. I don't even get the appeal of playing him really because you aren't actively making any decisions with him. You simply run around and occasionally slow/fling a priority target. Sure, it's fun to run around and watch people stupid enough to follow you kill themselves, but that's not active. It's a completely passive experience for all players involved.


To be clear though, I have no problem with the relative level of power that each of these champions have. I don't really find Teemo or Singed broken per se. It's more that the reaction I have to playing against them is almost universally, "Ugh... really?" And that stems simply from the fact


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

01-23-2013

singed is fun. Teemo is not. death to teemo


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aceofsween

Senior Member

01-23-2013

The thing about anti-fun isn't just whether or not the champion is fun to play, but whether it actually denies the rest of the people you're playing against fun. In Singed's case I think you can make a pretty compelling argument that his anti-fun outweighs the fun.


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Thief of Space

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Singed is really only anti fun IMO if you aren't a ranged champ or a champ that has ranged abilities (like Teemo and Kayle can pewpew Singed from a range and he cant get close early game to do anything.) Banned'Zix is completely anti fun for many things about him it seems like he replaced mantheon completely in terms of semi tanky assassin. Wukong is also completely anti fun if his user is good at playing him, a lot of damage and negative armor from Q is sleeper OP. I find Evelynn also pretty anti fun but I play her in 3v3 a lot because of QQQQ spamming and her ult. Eve roams like no tomorrow and will gank everyone at any time.


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aceofsween

Senior Member

01-23-2013

The difference between Kha'zix and Wukong is that they are actively making decisions to maximize their abilities. Singed in that respect is completely different because of how his mechanics really make everything passive.


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Peligrad

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I think the ughs mostly come from when these 2 show up in 3s. Singed is OP in 3s....but the game isn't balanced around 3s... Teemo was really really strong in 3s. The lightbringer changes kind of balanced him out a bit though.

If you have trouble with Teemo...go learn a mage...

Mages see teemos as food.

As far as Singed goes. You've just gotta make good choices. Singed is really good at punishing people who make bad choices.

Don't walk into his poison.
Don't chase him.
A low hp singed still has more hp than a full hp teemo...remember that...
Don't fight Singed while his ult is going...it hurts and he gets crazy regen.
Don't stick around with less than 50% hp...a turret isn't going to save you if he dives.
Singed wants to draw out the engagement for as long as possible.
Just wait for a good engagement, get a hold of his carries and then focus him down when they're dead...unless he runs...then don't chase him...go do an objective.
Learn how his flip works. If he's going to catch you, at the last second run at him. He might flip you to safety instead of behind him into his poison.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peligrad View Post
Mages see teemos as food.
ahri sees killing teemo as a sacred duty to restore fun to league.

DEATH TO TEEMO


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MrFisterRoboto

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peligrad View Post
I think the ughs mostly come from when these 2 show up in 3s. Singed is OP in 3s....but the game isn't balanced around 3s... Teemo was really really strong in 3s. The lightbringer changes kind of balanced him out a bit though.
I agree with this. Teemo and Singed are ALWAYS on my ban list in 3s. They are absolutely out of control crazy on TT. I agree Lightbringer gives you a bit of a counter to teemo, but you still have to be on 24/7 shroom killing patrol, which wastes an inordinate amount of time.

I will say though that I agree with the OP, even when it's in 5s. Singed and Teemo are champs that aren't really OP but so annoying as to make me not want to play. They completely dictate the style of play for the match, making you have to react to them, rather than them reacting to you.

It's not to say that there aren't ways to counter them, because there are, but I think the OP has a good point- Singed and Teemo are anti-fun.


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Lambach33

Member

01-23-2013

Well, let's see.
To me, potentially "anti fun" consists of champions who are exceedingly simple, particularly frustrating to deal with, require little skill/effort or engagement and/or are too strong.

(Note: "too strong" does not mean overpowered; If anything i hate how people just vomit and parrot terms like OP and UP... Such terms mean a player/team has an inherent advantage/disadvantage for no reason other than playing/containing a particular champion. "Too strong" is simply a reference to a champion having particularly large amounts of raw power, while sacrificing little else, thus requiring rather specific tactics to deal with; Darius, for instance, isn't overpowered, he's a rather limited champion, but he is certainly "too strong", bash head against him and even if you perceive yourself to be ahead, he may get you on sheer power alone)

Outside of personal perspective, champions i think could be argued to make the list for "anti fun" are:

Darius - Playing against him is like playing against an old video game boss... Find a pattern that works and play carefully and repetitively ad nauseum... Fail to do so and a competent Darius will punish you for it. Again, not OP, but certainly too strong. Very beatable, but boringly so.

Garen - Just annoying in that he can focus on damage while being tanky or vice-versa rather too well.

Jax - The only champion, i my opinion, who could be argued for "OP"... I can only guess he's a pet to someone at Riot, seeing as he's tanky, does a lot of damage, huge burst, huge DPS, scales incredibly well, versatile, easy to build, lots of built in free stats, hard CC, one of the best dashes, engage/escape, very safe... The list goes on... He's pretty much the Mary-Sue of LoL. Hell, even his lore is textbook Mary-Sue...

Mordekaiser - This is the only guy in the list that's my personal opinion; I don't expect many people to agree with this, but i just don't like playing against him... I don't have trouble beating him, or anything, it's just laborious, frustrating and kinda boring...

Olaf - Similar issues to Darius, though not as drastic. Still, basically it's a guy who can build full-tank, with capped CDR and will do massive damage, can't be reliably CC'd, and so on...

Singed - Has been addressed. It's just a matter of design, really. Fighting him is annoying. Though personally, i rather like how unique he is.

Teemo - I can totally see the issue here, but i find the concept of doing things to the field itself, such as laying traps and all, to be an interesting element to have in the game. To me, the issue isn't so much with Teemo himself, but how he fits into the context of the game currently.


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Montesque64

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I find myself in a funny position. I hate playing against Teemo with a burning passion, but I love playing Singed equally as much.

I will say I'd dispute the idea that Singed plays completely passively, as I find him to be the most mentally challenging champion to play. He CAN be bursted down, especially if he's built AP rather than HP, and so that creates a constant series of important choices re: how close to approach, when to commit, etc, which are exacerbated by his complete lack of ranged damage and reliance on the opponent's actions to do significant damage. Personally, I find many other champions less fun, because playing them sometimes boils down to: "Do ability rotation, assess, do it again or retreat," whereas Singed involves constantly anticipating and reacting to the opponent's actions to, in my opinion, a much greater degree.

And, for all of those reasons, I can see why people might dislike playing him, because you cannot either fight him or use him the same way you do every other champ in the game.

Edit 1: To clarify, I am not saying that other champs don't require you to anticipate the opponent, but that most of them involve more anticipating their opponent's attacks and abilities, rather than their movement, whereas Singed absolutely requires both.


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