Mercurial Scimitar suggestion- 1 second Olaf ult.

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67chrome

Senior Member

02-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
Quicksilver Sash single-handedly invalidates several champions.
Sounds like somebody is a Malzahar main.

And no it doesn't. The cooldown is so lengthy any CC on QWE keys isn't that impacted by it, so the closest it gets to hard-countering champions is if it can remove a significant portion of an ultimate. And it doesn't prevent the initial application, so you still take full damage from everything front-loaded - which means the ability either has to do negligible damage and be used for the CC or that the ability is a damage-over-time kind of thing to actually counter enough of a champion's kit to invalidate them. Which mostly only makes it good against Malzahar and Mordekaiser. Beyond that, Gangplank is a decent champion - I wouldn't say he counters anyone enough to invalidate them though despite having the QSS active as one of his abilities. He looses most of his match-ups really. Removing CC effects isn't that potent, even when it's on a ~30 second or less cooldown. It's certainly useful, but there are several item actives I'd rather have.

Quicksilver Sash is more or less completely worthless against burst champions as well, as all it offers there is magic resistance. Beyond that I'd say ~25% of the CC available in game is some form of CC QSS has no effect against (displacement and location-based stuff). Blitzcrank, Alistar, Gragas, Vi, Cho'Gath, Malphite, Zyra, Singed, Anivia, Viktor, Volibear, Vayne, Poppy, Lee Sin, Diana, Tristanna, Wukong, Ziggs, Nami, Janna, and Orianna are just a few that have access to such forms of CC - causing the very real situation were you can purchase an item that removes CC to be worthless against every single one of the enemies CC effects, or at least the ones that are causing trouble. And even then team-fights are a thing, so you might need to remove a CC effect in the heat of battle only for Mordekaiser to ult you after the offending CC effect was removed. Even if you are facing against a champion that does have rather nasty sashable CC they're probably the likes of Amumu, Annie, or Sona - were the CC is applied in a widespread Area of Effect, coasting your team upwards of 8,000 gold to avoid most of the CC duration if you choose to counter it with QSS.

QSS is a useful item in certain situations and a decent item overall, I just have trouble seeing it as anything close to the most overpowered item in the game. Overpowered to me means more useful and effective than the next best thing, which QSS doesn't come close to accomplishing, unless I'm dueling a Malazhar in bottom lane on Dominion.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

02-08-2013

Malzahar's Ultimate: Is used for CC. His damage is his W. His target get's QSS: he does no damage, because they can immediately leave his W.

Mordekaiser's Ultimate: Is used for the clone. If Mordekaiser doesn't get the clone, he has lost his strongest feature.

Skarner's Ultimate: Is used for CC. QSS counter.

Urgot's Ultimate: CC and positioning. Canceled.

AP Sion: Countered; break the stun and retaliate, often dealing enough damage to kill Sion.

Fiddlebricks: Countered, bonus MR and breaks the fear.

Amumu: Used to be the counter, now only aids in positioning (which is still a pretty damn good effect.) Also negates Amumu's passive, which is extremely threatening to the champions who would need to cleanse his ultimate anyway.

Teemo: Negates his dots, rendering his AP poke playstyle useless and forcing him to play as a DPS.

Alistar: Removes the stun on his Q, which means you can act immediately after the stun; despite what you'd think, Alistar's stun doesn't actually carry the knock-up functionality.

Gragas/Malphite: Removes the attack speed slows, which ignores tenacity, allowing ranged champions to deal their full DPS.

Zyra: Removes the snare, making it more difficult to land her ultimate.

Singed: Removes the Poison Trail, cutting damage taken over 5 seconds by half.

Anivia: Removes stun, removes frost effect, effectively taking nearly 40% less damage from her combo.

Viktor: Removes the stun, making his W a slow.

Vayne: Removes the stun, making counterattacks very possible.

Poppy: Removes the ultimate, negating bonus damage.

Lee Sin: Negates attack speed slow and I believe it negates the stealth reveal and the secondary cast of Q.

Wukong: Negates the armor reduction.

Nami: I believe it negates the stun.

Also removes Ignite, preventing ~400-500 true damage.



QSS is overpowered because it renders champions meaningless. It's also an incredible failsafe against teams that pack a lot of CC. If you honestly gave it Olaf's ultimate, then, as a single example, Malphite could easily 1v5 a team, because with his ultimate and that one second, he can pack roughly 3000 damage, with 60% of that splashing. SotD + Infinity Edge = 276 AD, 1.644 attacks per second. 690 damage per hit, 3 hits (easily). 2070 + 400(ultimate) + 260(ground slam). With Mercurial Scimitar, that's an extra 472.5 damage, punching him cleanly over 3000, and that doesn't allow the enemy any real time to respond (2 attacks happen while they're CC'd from ultimate, and with 1 second of freedom with the proposed MS buff, at least one more attack before Malphite get's nuked.)


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67chrome

Senior Member

02-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
QSS is overpowered because it renders champions meaningless. It's also an incredible failsafe against teams that pack a lot of CC.
Most of those are horrible examples, especially if you're sticking with the thesis Quicksilver Sash is overpowered because it renders champions meaningless. Those are examples of when activating QSS removes something. but removing something doesn't suddenly make a champion meaningless. Removing the stun portion of Condemn doesn't make Vayne meaningless. That doesn't really effect her at all, she has a gap closer and can knock you backwards at the same time if she wants to maintain distance from a melee champion, or generally make you evaporate if you're a ranged champion. And if you're an offensive unit trying to utilize being not stunned to kill her, forcing an opponent into getting an MR item to counter a champion that deals predominantly physical damage is pretty much the definition of winning. Banshee's Veil would at least cut out the knockback effect and damage, considering Condemn is the only ability Vayne has that effects it. The Wukong example is even worse.

I wouldn't call it an incredible failsafe against teams with lots of CC either. Half the champions you listed can proceed to have their way with you via the wide range of other CC effects they have access to. I mean, you remove the poison from Singed - Singed then proceeds to fling you back into the poison. Solid use of a 90 second CD? Nope.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

02-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
Most of those are horrible examples, especially if you're sticking with the thesis Quicksilver Sash is overpowered because it renders champions meaningless. Those are examples of when activating QSS removes something. but removing something doesn't suddenly make a champion meaningless. Removing the stun portion of Condemn doesn't make Vayne meaningless. That doesn't really effect her at all, she has a gap closer and can knock you backwards at the same time if she wants to maintain distance from a melee champion, or generally make you evaporate if you're a ranged champion. And if you're an offensive unit trying to utilize being not stunned to kill her, forcing an opponent into getting an MR item to counter a champion that deals predominantly physical damage is pretty much the definition of winning. Banshee's Veil would at least cut out the knockback effect and damage, considering Condemn is the only ability Vayne has that effects it. The Wukong example is even worse.

I wouldn't call it an incredible failsafe against teams with lots of CC either. Half the champions you listed can proceed to have their way with you via the wide range of other CC effects they have access to. I mean, you remove the poison from Singed - Singed then proceeds to fling you back into the poison. Solid use of a 90 second CD? Nope.
I listed all applications which particularly interfere with a champion's mechanics. The Vayne example is actually important; if Vayne goes for the kill and fails because of QSS, she's likely to die to that champion immediately thereafter, because she doesn't have the stun to help her get the kill.

Amusingly enough, the champions whom QSS hardcounter are generally the ones who don't care about QSS; Malzahar can still harass repetitively, Mordekaiser can save his ultimate for the nuke. The item itself just renders their trademark comboes irrelevant. Because it was so strong, it was also very expensive. Except that 800 gold for the ability to ignore CC in small skirmishes, or to counter a champion's reison d'etre, is extremely cheap. CC'ing abilities are weaker than others purely because they have CC; removing the CC, via QSS, renders the ability much weaker than pure damage abilities.

I've never once asked for QSS to be nerfed, but Mercurial Scimitar is a dangerous item, and further buffing it would be risky.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
Quicksilver Sash single-handedly invalidates several champions.
This wouldn't be much of a change from QSS so far as channel-suppress canceling goes.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgus View Post
This wouldn't be much of a change from QSS so far as channel-suppress canceling goes.
The less that a champion has to forgo while countering the enemy, the more dangerous that item/build is.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
The less that a champion has to forgo while countering the enemy, the more dangerous that item/build is.
Suppress channels are a bit hard to balance, since if it can be cleansed it becomes weak while it is essentially a free kill on a squishy if it is uncleansable.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

02-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
Sounds like somebody is a Malzahar main.

And no it doesn't. The cooldown is so lengthy any CC on QWE keys isn't that impacted by it, so the closest it gets to hard-countering champions is if it can remove a significant portion of an ultimate. And it doesn't prevent the initial application, so you still take full damage from everything front-loaded - which means the ability either has to do negligible damage and be used for the CC or that the ability is a damage-over-time kind of thing to actually counter enough of a champion's kit to invalidate them. Which mostly only makes it good against Malzahar and Mordekaiser. Beyond that, Gangplank is a decent champion - I wouldn't say he counters anyone enough to invalidate them though despite having the QSS active as one of his abilities. He looses most of his match-ups really. Removing CC effects isn't that potent, even when it's on a ~30 second or less cooldown. It's certainly useful, but there are several item actives I'd rather have.

Quicksilver Sash is more or less completely worthless against burst champions as well, as all it offers there is magic resistance. Beyond that I'd say ~25% of the CC available in game is some form of CC QSS has no effect against (displacement and location-based stuff). Blitzcrank, Alistar, Gragas, Vi, Cho'Gath, Malphite, Zyra, Singed, Anivia, Viktor, Volibear, Vayne, Poppy, Lee Sin, Diana, Tristanna, Wukong, Ziggs, Nami, Janna, and Orianna are just a few that have access to such forms of CC - causing the very real situation were you can purchase an item that removes CC to be worthless against every single one of the enemies CC effects, or at least the ones that are causing trouble. And even then team-fights are a thing, so you might need to remove a CC effect in the heat of battle only for Mordekaiser to ult you after the offending CC effect was removed. Even if you are facing against a champion that does have rather nasty sashable CC they're probably the likes of Amumu, Annie, or Sona - were the CC is applied in a widespread Area of Effect, coasting your team upwards of 8,000 gold to avoid most of the CC duration if you choose to counter it with QSS.

QSS is a useful item in certain situations and a decent item overall, I just have trouble seeing it as anything close to the most overpowered item in the game. Overpowered to me means more useful and effective than the next best thing, which QSS doesn't come close to accomplishing, unless I'm dueling a Malazhar in bottom lane on Dominion.
If anything, its hard counters seem incredibly champion specific.


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Galgus

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Senior Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TealNinje View Post
Malzahar's Ultimate: Is used for CC. His damage is his W. His target get's QSS: he does no damage, because they can immediately leave his W.

Mordekaiser's Ultimate: Is used for the clone. If Mordekaiser doesn't get the clone, he has lost his strongest feature.

Skarner's Ultimate: Is used for CC. QSS counter.

Urgot's Ultimate: CC and positioning. Canceled.

AP Sion: Countered; break the stun and retaliate, often dealing enough damage to kill Sion.

Fiddlebricks: Countered, bonus MR and breaks the fear.

Amumu: Used to be the counter, now only aids in positioning (which is still a pretty damn good effect.) Also negates Amumu's passive, which is extremely threatening to the champions who would need to cleanse his ultimate anyway.

Teemo: Negates his dots, rendering his AP poke playstyle useless and forcing him to play as a DPS.

Alistar: Removes the stun on his Q, which means you can act immediately after the stun; despite what you'd think, Alistar's stun doesn't actually carry the knock-up functionality.

Gragas/Malphite: Removes the attack speed slows, which ignores tenacity, allowing ranged champions to deal their full DPS.

Zyra: Removes the snare, making it more difficult to land her ultimate.

Singed: Removes the Poison Trail, cutting damage taken over 5 seconds by half.

Anivia: Removes stun, removes frost effect, effectively taking nearly 40% less damage from her combo.

Viktor: Removes the stun, making his W a slow.

Vayne: Removes the stun, making counterattacks very possible.

Poppy: Removes the ultimate, negating bonus damage.

Lee Sin: Negates attack speed slow and I believe it negates the stealth reveal and the secondary cast of Q.

Wukong: Negates the armor reduction.

Nami: I believe it negates the stun.

Also removes Ignite, preventing ~400-500 true damage.



QSS is overpowered because it renders champions meaningless. It's also an incredible failsafe against teams that pack a lot of CC. If you honestly gave it Olaf's ultimate, then, as a single example, Malphite could easily 1v5 a team, because with his ultimate and that one second, he can pack roughly 3000 damage, with 60% of that splashing. SotD + Infinity Edge = 276 AD, 1.644 attacks per second. 690 damage per hit, 3 hits (easily). 2070 + 400(ultimate) + 260(ground slam). With Mercurial Scimitar, that's an extra 472.5 damage, punching him cleanly over 3000, and that doesn't allow the enemy any real time to respond (2 attacks happen while they're CC'd from ultimate, and with 1 second of freedom with the proposed MS buff, at least one more attack before Malphite get's nuked.)
There are some edge-case champions that it hits especially hard, but such CCs make for a free kill against a non-bruiser if not .

Malphite already has no problem doing large amounts of damage and CC in a short duration; and unless he is building so squishy that damage focus would kill him, he is mostly irrelevant after his initial burst.

I've considered proposing that it be changed to an AD/ Crit Chance item as an optional tweak to tailor it more to carries and less to bruisers: would that be preferable?


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TealNinje

Senior Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgus View Post
There are some edge-case champions that it hits especially hard, but such CCs make for a free kill against a non-bruiser if not .

Malphite already has no problem doing large amounts of damage and CC in a short duration; and unless he is building so squishy that damage focus would kill him, he is mostly irrelevant after his initial burst.

I've considered proposing that it be changed to an AD/ Crit Chance item as an optional tweak to tailor it more to carries and less to bruisers: would that be preferable?
The item should be designed for bruisers, not carries.