Lore, comparatively

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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

01-24-2013

See, I always thought Vi had fairly solid reason to join the League, childish as it is:

She's a cocky, self-aggrandising ass-kicker who has spent the last couple of years doling out rough justice on the streets to those who deserve it and generally throwing her weight about. When she's taken on board by the law, and given a sense of legitimacy, she suddenly finds herself stuck following the orders of a by-the-book officer who gets to spend her spare time fighting some of the world's most dangerous and skilled figures. Vi lives for that sort of thing and she'd jump at any sort of opportunity to take on some people who might give her a real challenge (And upstage Caitlyn) if it came to light. There's no way she'd settle for just sitting around the precinct.

Beyond that: Vi actually builds up a limited image of Piltover's criminal and counter-culture elements, while also letting us see a little of what lies beyond the shining spires of the inner city. We really learned a hell of a lot more about Piltover from her than we did from Jayce.


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Montesque64

Senior Member

01-24-2013

I agree on both counts, Exile. I liked that Vi gave us a glimpse of Piltover's underbelly, as up until that point the seamier side of technology had been solely Zaun's domain.

If nothing else, I feel like we've at least got a pretty decent range of alignments going now for most of the different factions. Noxus has some folks who are seemingly straight up evil, as well as some who would be close to being considered good. I kind of wish we had some non-good Demacians, though...really play up that tyranny aspect which is their dark side. Fiona's obsession is probably the closest we've got to that for now.

Ionia has probably been the best in that respect, i.e. having a wide range of alignments, from Zed and Syndra to Irelia and Karma.


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Birdy51

Senior Member

01-25-2013

That's very true. I hadn't given enough thought, but she has revealed quite a bit about Piltovian crime. I've always wondered why Caitlyn put her on the force though... It seems against her character, but maybe I never looked deep enough.

Perhaps she knew that Vi had to have a positive force in her life. According to the law, Vi probably would have ended up in jail for her past crimes. However, that would have done her no good, she had already learned that she couldn't live that way and was determined to turn her life around. Rather than have her serve a useless sentence, perhaps Caitlyn believed that Vi needed a structured enviroment in which to turn her into a positive member of society.

Afterall, Caitlyn herself was a vigilante when she was young.


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Montesque64

Senior Member

01-25-2013

Vi was basically already being a "productive member of society" in the sense that she was working against criminals. Caitlyn just gave her actual authority, so she wouldn't be forced to bring her in for disturbing the peace...repeatedly and loudly. Win win situation for both sides.

Actually, in reference to my previous post, what I'd really like to see is a "fallen" Demacian, sort of a mirror for Riven, who believes that her nation's system is flawed, and works to change it, possibly with another faction's aid, possibly by themselves. So far all of the Demacian characters seem kind of uber-white knightish, and all for DEMACIAAAAA...Boring. :P


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

01-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montesque64 View Post
Actually, in reference to my previous post, what I'd really like to see is a "fallen" Demacian, sort of a mirror for Riven, who believes that her nation's system is flawed, and works to change it, possibly with another faction's aid, possibly by themselves. So far all of the Demacian characters seem kind of uber-white knightish, and all for DEMACIAAAAA...Boring. :P
The problem with doing that, and indeed the reason Riven became Noxian, is that you need to find a suitable way of making that character flawed or else they simply become the new uber-white knight. Demacia is typically painted as being the 'good' city state, even if it's not strictly true, and for that reason it's rather difficult to make someone who rails against their flaws without making them 'Too good for Demacia'.

Noxians acknowledge their cruelty and unnecessary measures, they simply have come to view them as a different kind of strength. The problem with prototypical Demacians is that they refuse to accept that they can be at fault while furthering their nation's ideals. How do you design someone who fits in with the Demacians, and yet takes issue with their approach, without making your character undeniably 'right'?


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Birdy51

Senior Member

01-25-2013

It would almost overdo it to have two characters who fall under "my homeland is flawed" category. That said, Lux is a good example of a champion who reveals a bit why Demacia isn't perfect. Her judgment reveals quite a bit of depth beneath her happy-go-lucky demeanor.


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Montesque64

Senior Member

01-25-2013

I was actually thinking of Lux as I wrote the above, and that she was the closest thing to what I was talking about that I had seen thus far. So, nice catch there, Birdy

Obviously it's a matter of personal opinion,but I don't think that having a mirror for Riven would necessarily be overdoing it. I mean, that's practically why Kat and Garen exist, is as foils to one another.

Maybe I misunderstood your point, Exile, but I don't want the champion to "fit in" with the other Demacians. In my head I see a character who was, perhaps, born in a lower tier of Demacian society, very skilled, but due to the society's rigid caste system, was kept from living up to his or her full potential. They eventually rebel against the system and begin trying to change it from without, as Demacian society, by its' very nature, is very resistant to change from within.

A background like that wouldn't make her seem necessarily "too good," after all, they're basically advocating for a selfish/more Noxian system, just as, ultimately, Riven is advocating more restrictions on those with power, i.e. a more Demacian system for Noxus. It could also, if such things were included in the bio, give us a bio to support the fact that the Demacians are not "the good guys" any more than Noxus are the "bad guys" of Valoran, which is a point I'm afraid can be easily lost.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

01-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montesque64 View Post
Maybe I misunderstood your point, Exile, but I don't want the champion to "fit in" with the other Demacians. In my head I see a character who was, perhaps, born in a lower tier of Demacian society, very skilled, but due to the society's rigid caste system, was kept from living up to his or her full potential. They eventually rebel against the system and begin trying to change it from without, as Demacian society, by its' very nature, is very resistant to change from within.
The point I was trying to make, and this may well be me missing the point, is that it's difficult to make a character who turned against the Demacian values they once held dear without making them seem innately more moral than the 'good' city state. While Riven's views are, in essence, that the 'evil' city state should be less 'evil', you're looking to make a character who thinks the city built on justice isn't just enough for them. It needs to be handled very carefully or you end up throwing Demacia under a bus to make this person look good.

Riven works, in my mind, because she was part of, and believed in, the system before her eyes were opened to its true face. She loves Noxus and still identifies with the city, even after all she's been through. A 'good' Demacian would be taught to overlook all their city's failings, while a Demacian who always had their doubts and now 'wants things to be more selfish' doesn't really seem like the sort of person who belongs there at all. Why does this person want to change Demacia when it's fairly clear that they have little reason to stay there?

The Demacians aren't the 'good guys', but when you make a character who exists to reinforce that point you run the risk of simply making them the victim - someone who exists solely to make the city look bad for their own ends. Demacia should be allowed to speak for itself, rather than having one person come along with the intent of shattering all our misconceptions.

(Sorry about my sudden absence, by the way, and my apologies if I make any sweeping assumptions here that are hideously wrong)


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Montesque64

Senior Member

01-28-2013

They would have to come at it from a different angle from Riven's, admittedly, but I personally would think it would still be workable. Working solely based on what we actually know of Demacia, military service is required, and a caste system exists, you can easily see someone of a lower caste who was always unhappy with the system, but unable to escape it due to her low standing. Then, due to, say, her unit being wiped out (probably something a little less on-the-nose as a mirror to Riven), she escapes her assigned role in society, and travels the world, learning the true value of personal freedom, before coming back to work on changing Demacia.

Quote:
Demacia should be allowed to speak for itself, rather than having one person come along with the intent of shattering all our misconceptions.
I agree with this, in principle, but at this point the lore is completely focused on champion bios. Thus, any history or background we get on any city state is going to be, by necessity, filtered through the lens of that champion's perceptions. None of the city states can really speak for themselves except through their champions (which, come to think of it, wasn't really any different when the JoJ and Judgements were going), and I think that is an area of Demacia's culture that bears exploring, particularly since they've been so thorough in exploring the "evil" side of Noxus. Though, to be fair, with Noxus they've done a fairly good job showing the "good" side, also, if not quite as obviously.


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Unzen

Junior Member

01-31-2013

I think the fact they're relying on past lore to have players who actually care about lore infer the reason for allowing newer champions into the League is a bit sketchy, and at times falls flat on it's face. While I realize they avoid having to give everyone the same "I joined the League for X, Y, or Z" this way, some times they take the walls of text too far and leave the characters minus any personality or even vague motivation for doing so.

Syndra feels the worst of it. This is a woman who had POWER OVERWHELMING, killed her master for limiting it, ripped her former home out of the land to become her own evil fortress of solitude, and plans to destroy the leadership of her former homeland and "anyone else who would dare to shackle her greatness".

So she now joins the ultimate shackle master of the land, who has been known to use brute force if necessary to keep things in line, or even imprisonment and forced servitude for uncooperative (or deemed highly dangerous) beings...why?

It's moments like this that make things seem dumb. Bits of it extend to quite a few other recent champions, and I really can't tell why Elise or Zyra are even in the League either (or the new Warwick for that matter). Champions like Thresh are so vague that you end up confused as to whether he wanted to actually join the League or if they keep him in a room next to Fiddles and Brand until someone wants to use him.

No seriously, how are you going to collect or break someone's soul when he's going to come back and murder you anyway?