Lore, comparatively

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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Montesque64 View Post
Yes really, and it was really frustrating reading the Orc army book talking about Grimgor Ironhide preparing to go to confront Asheron >_<
Archaon; not that I blame you for forgetting. He pretty much vanished after that, didn't he?

There was something sadly hilarious about the way that first the hordes of Chaos, then Mannfred's undead cavalcade basically gave up and went home.


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Xulsigae

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Ah. Well not being a follower of Warhammer Fantasy, but of 40K, I can't speak to how the plot advances in Warhammer.
It's certainly advancing in 40K.


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Ophirr

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I feel enriched for reading this.


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Montesque64

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Ah, right, Archaon. Yeah, I was about 90% certain I was mixing him up with someone else, but I didn't want to look it up. Heh.

And that's another sore topic, Xul. WFB has basically become the redheaded step child of Games Workshop. The last army book was the Empire (which already had a 7th E book) in APRIL. Of course, from what I hear, 40k hasn't fared much better, unless you really love Space Marines...

So, I'd be interested in knowing y'all's thoughts regarding the 2012 champion releases as pertains to the lore of the league. I'll post a list tomorrow, along with my thoughts on their status under the criteria that Exile and I were discussing earlier. Curious to see others' thoughts.


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Axzarious

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I suppose what OP is trying to say or confer is that the lore writers are forgetting that every champion is in the League of Legends for a purpose. This used to be something I found very entertaining and what seperated LoL from other MOBAs by a large margin - but now it seems to be going the DOTA route with explinations of "Heres why this person is awesome" and ends it there.

Sometimes it will make a slight mention of the League if we are lucky - wait, no, this hasn't happened since the days of Draven - and even then we lucked out. Darius who came before had no mention of the league. In fact, with the current trend of champion lore revisions like Karthas, Warwick, and Soraka, you could almost ignore the existence of the League of Legends entirely! - yup, all these doodz go to a field and bash eachothers heads in - whats a summoner?

The claim of making lore more interesting doesn't hold up when you realize that even with Warwick and Soraka being in the league for... wait, why the hell are the new incantations in the league? I suppose Soraka joined to help people (Though there is no lore mention of this!), and that Warwick joined to hunt her down and steal her heart - oh wait, so now warwick is either a dumbass or so far gone and lost to the beast that he doesn't realize he can't actually devour Soraka's heart?

Hell! I'm going to post a little example here for an idea as to how they could splice Rengar and Kha'zix into the league a little better!

Suppose that both before and after Kha'zix had that run in with Rengar he had begun terrorizing various travelers and caravans. Suppose word eventually got to the summoners (And after devouring some important people - and maybe a few run ins with other champions) that there was a dangerous beast that needed subduing. Summoners came, managed to capture Kha'zix, and then kept him contained for the league and largely content with promises that he would be able to devour and clash with the mightiest beings of the world? - Suppose it was then some time before Rengar found out about this little tidbit, and was furious. Rengar then marched straight to the Halls of Justice and demanded entry.... and then was estatic at what he found out. He could then hunt and test his mettle against every hero of the world - and not only could he hunt endlessly, this new source of prey would be able to learn, live, and fight him again, hopefully learning from their mistakes and providing a greater thrill.

EDIT: ok, so apparantly the existence of the league was only implied in Draven lore.


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Montesque64

Senior Member

01-24-2013

I can honestly say I do not understand this argument, even as many times as I've seen it made. Most of these champions' motivations for joining the league are made fairly clear. It's just that Riot has stopped doing the little ending paragraph saying "Oh, and by the way, THIS IS THE EXPLICIT REASON THIS CHAMPION IS JOINING THE LEAGUE." Why? Maybe because it was rather poor writing?

Let's look at the last few for examples of this. Thresh: "Only when he has broken the wills of Valoran's most resilient warriors will he finally have what he needs." Where are the most resilient warriors of Runeterra to be most easily found? The League. What is the easiest method of gaining access to the League, should you be powerful enough? Joining it.

Kha'Zix: " infiltrated Valoran to devour the land's most promising creatures. With each kill he absorbs his prey's strength, evolving to grow more powerful." Where would the most powerful and promising people in Runeterra be found?

Rengar has two possible/probable reasons: "Though his collection is extensive, he remains unsatisfied, tirelessly seeking greater game," and "preparing himself for the next encounter with the one monster (Kha'zix) he never managed to defeat."

Vi is a little trickier, but still has definite motives for joining the league included in her Bio: ", a job that let her beat up crooks without forcing her to run from the cops sounded perfect." I.e., Vi really enjoys beating people up, as long as it's for a good cause. The League is basically an organization dedicated to people beating up other people for various causes (good and bad). Not too hard to see the appeal for her, quite aside from the fact that her partner was already in the League, and nothing about Vi's personality in that or her dialogue indicates she's cool with being considered second tier.

I thought that Nami's would be tougher, but if anything hers is easier than Vi's: " Summoning the tide to bear her ashore, Nami began her search for the moonstone." Nami is looking for the bearer of the moonstone. Like Vayne and Caitlyn before her, Nami would have quickly realized that aside from everything else, the League is an information hub, and a good place to get involved with if you want to find out about a certain person/people. Thus why she joined.

Finally, as you say, even Draven has his motivations implied. So really, this whole complaint about champions "no longer having a reason to join the League" is ridiculous. They all have very good reasons, consistent with their characters. It's simply that Riot has stopped stating it explicitly, because they do not have to, if people are willing to actually read the bios and understand them.


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Axinhed

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montesque64 View Post
I can honestly say I do not understand this argument, even as many times as I've seen it made. Most of these champions' motivations for joining the league are made fairly clear. It's just that Riot has stopped doing the little ending paragraph saying "Oh, and by the way, THIS IS THE EXPLICIT REASON THIS CHAMPION IS JOINING THE LEAGUE." Why? Maybe because it was rather poor writing?

Let's look at the last few for examples of this. Thresh: "Only when he has broken the wills of Valoran's most resilient warriors will he finally have what he needs." Where are the most resilient warriors of Runeterra to be most easily found? The League. What is the easiest method of gaining access to the League, should you be powerful enough? Joining it.

Kha'Zix: " infiltrated Valoran to devour the land's most promising creatures. With each kill he absorbs his prey's strength, evolving to grow more powerful." Where would the most powerful and promising people in Runeterra be found?

Rengar has two possible/probable reasons: "Though his collection is extensive, he remains unsatisfied, tirelessly seeking greater game," and "preparing himself for the next encounter with the one monster (Kha'zix) he never managed to defeat."

Vi is a little trickier, but still has definite motives for joining the league included in her Bio: ", a job that let her beat up crooks without forcing her to run from the cops sounded perfect." I.e., Vi really enjoys beating people up, as long as it's for a good cause. The League is basically an organization dedicated to people beating up other people for various causes (good and bad). Not too hard to see the appeal for her, quite aside from the fact that her partner was already in the League, and nothing about Vi's personality in that or her dialogue indicates she's cool with being considered second tier.

I thought that Nami's would be tougher, but if anything hers is easier than Vi's: " Summoning the tide to bear her ashore, Nami began her search for the moonstone." Nami is looking for the bearer of the moonstone. Like Vayne and Caitlyn before her, Nami would have quickly realized that aside from everything else, the League is an information hub, and a good place to get involved with if you want to find out about a certain person/people. Thus why she joined.

Finally, as you say, even Draven has his motivations implied. So really, this whole complaint about champions "no longer having a reason to join the League" is ridiculous. They all have very good reasons, consistent with their characters. It's simply that Riot has stopped stating it explicitly, because they do not have to, if people are willing to actually read the bios and understand them.
People want to have their reasons stated clearly rather than implied because it gives them a better ground to speculate. How else can we make our theories when our base knowledge is incomplete or shaky?

For Thresh, there's a thread arguing about his reasons in the frontpage, so you can look at that.

For Kha'zix, it makes small sense for him to be there to evolve since it seems that his evolutions are reset every game (unless a red post debunks that)

For Rengar, his first reason checks out if that's his only reason. But the second doesn't; He can't kill Kha'zix inside the League, thus there'll be no closure for him in the end

For Vi, it makes little sense. Joining the political playground where the fate of the world is decided "for the funsies" seems a weak reason to do.

For Nami, her reason would check out if there WASN'T a timer on her quest, but there is. Why frolic around in the League when her people's fate is ticking down to oblivion?

Draven makes sense, at least. A man with THAT big an ego needs the biggest stage to be seen.


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Montesque64

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Well, I disagree with the premise that we need reasons clearly stated, but if that's your opinion on the matter I can't change that, in all likelihood.

For Thresh, there is a debate going on, but it seems to be more focused on the minutia of the situation, i.e, whether he came to collect souls or break wills, and whether he would've been better served going elsewhere for that. The fact that he did come to the League to face stronger opponents and gather something from them seems fairly undisputed.

For Kha'Zix, you could easily say the same about any champion, from beta forward, since they reset at the beginning of each game, obviously they're not really making any progress towards their individual goal(s). I'm inclined to believe that the resetting doesn't necessarily reflect a stasis on their part, but rather just the rules of the way the League is run. Thus, Kha'Zix outside of the League may very well be gathering power from each champion he kills in the Arena, but his abilities in the game wouldn't reflect that, because everyone starts on a level playing field, i.e. at level 1.

For Rengar's second reason, if he considers Kha'Zix as much of a challenge as he apparently does, and takes such pride in his skill as a hunter, why would he not want to beat him repeatedly to prove his supremacy? And that's ignoring the times that Kha beats him, which would just fuel his determination to improve and get the bug next time.

Vi's opinion doesn't seem weak, it just seems kind of juvenile, which in a lot of ways is exactly Vi's character. She isn't a hugely mature person, by all indications. Also, why in the world is doing something "because it's fun" a weak reason? Seems like a great reason for a lot of things, to me (it's why we play the game, after all).

And for Nami, finally, there is indeed a timer on her quest, and so wouldn't it make more sense to go to Runeterra's largest multicultural center to find things out, rather than wandering all of Valoran trying to randomly find this one person with one rock?


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

01-24-2013

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Originally Posted by Montesque64 View Post
Well, I disagree with the premise that we need reasons clearly stated, but if that's your opinion on the matter I can't change that, in all likelihood.
While I don't entirely disagree, I feel as though a great deal of the clarity we once had has been lost with the recent changes. That's not to say that every champion released since has been a complete enigma - not at all - but that we have seen far more debate and discussion simply over why they would want to join the League at all. Surely it can't be in Riot's best interests to leave players uncertain about details like this, simply because they felt giving a blunt explanation fell short of their aspirations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montesque64 View Post
For Thresh, there is a debate going on, but it seems to be more focused on the minutia of the situation, i.e, whether he came to collect souls or break wills, and whether he would've been better served going elsewhere for that. The fact that he did come to the League to face stronger opponents and gather something from them seems fairly undisputed.
Again, I would question this. Thresh has no real reason to want to join the League because it provides an environment where he is bound to certain rules and restrictions and, as far as we known, unable to actually achieve his goal of taking the souls of champions for the Isles. The question is not what he wants from the League's members but why a spirit would think joining the organisation was preferential to simply haunting them on his own time?

What does he gain from fighting on the Fields?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montesque64 View Post
For Kha'Zix, you could easily say the same about any champion, from beta forward, since they reset at the beginning of each game, obviously they're not really making any progress towards their individual goal(s). I'm inclined to believe that the resetting doesn't necessarily reflect a stasis on their part, but rather just the rules of the way the League is run. Thus, Kha'Zix outside of the League may very well be gathering power from each champion he kills in the Arena, but his abilities in the game wouldn't reflect that, because everyone starts on a level playing field, i.e. at level 1.
The Kha'zix issue is not so much that his abilities are reset as it is that, like Thresh, he actually has nothing to gain from fighting in the League. Kha'zix gains strength and evolves by consuming aspects of his victims and the League of Legends is the one place in the world where this is simply impossible. It doesn't help that the driving force for him to join the League was to continue his pursuit of Rengar but, by binding himself to the summoners' statutes, he's put this goal beyond his reach.

Kha'zix is a being driven by instincts and his need to hunt down the strongest prey (So he can take on their strengths) so he gains absolutely nothing from fighting on the Fields. He has to kill and consume to grow stronger and he can never achieve the latter under the Institute's supervision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montesque64 View Post
For Rengar's second reason, if he considers Kha'Zix as much of a challenge as he apparently does, and takes such pride in his skill as a hunter, why would he not want to beat him repeatedly to prove his supremacy? And that's ignoring the times that Kha beats him, which would just fuel his determination to improve and get the bug next time.
Rengar is a hunter driven by his own pride and takes no small amount of pleasure in displaying his trophies from past hunts. He may see the League as a way to prove his superiority, but his main reason for being there is to kill Kha'zix permanently:

Quote:
On his den's largest wall, he reserves a space for the beast's head, a trophy he swears will one day be the centerpiece of his collection
Fighting on the Fields does absolutely nothing to help him achieve this end and the Institute has interests to ensure he never achieves his goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montesque64 View Post
Vi's opinion doesn't seem weak, it just seems kind of juvenile, which in a lot of ways is exactly Vi's character. She isn't a hugely mature person, by all indications. Also, why in the world is doing something "because it's fun" a weak reason? Seems like a great reason for a lot of things, to me (it's why we play the game, after all).
I completely agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montesque64 View Post
And for Nami, finally, there is indeed a timer on her quest, and so wouldn't it make more sense to go to Runeterra's largest multicultural center to find things out, rather than wandering all of Valoran trying to randomly find this one person with one rock?
While there's certainly a lot of truth in this, the awkward element is that it just seems bizarre for Nami to be fighting on the Fields in the interim. The fate of her people is in her hands (Flippers?) yet she's entered an agreement wherein she can be dragged away from her quest at a moment's notice to fight for causes that mean absolutely nothing to her. It just seems ... odd.

We can certainly make reasonable assumptions about why she accepted the Institute's offer, as it may have been her only hope, but it creates this awkward atmosphere where her quest is simply put on indefinite hold and seems unimportant besides her commitment to repetitive, meaningless battle. It's a total and utter disconnect from what should be her character's main focus.


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Montesque64

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Suppose we'll put the 2012 analysis on hold then, lol.

I have to admit, you have good points regarding Rengar. I'll admit that he probably didn't have to join the league because of Kha'Zix, however I believe that his "great hunter" aspiration would still lead him there, and there doesn't seem to be much problem with that.

It seems the issue with Thresh and Kha are similar, in that each gains power from killing enemies. Now, the assumption here seems to be that because death isn't permanent within the league then they are getting 0 benefit. If that is indeed the case, then I agree that they have little reason to join the League. However, the fact that they did join indicates that they are getting something out of it. I see no reason why Kha and Thresh can't get incremental benefit out of League membership. After all, they are killing very powerful individuals somewhat frequently, even if they then get resurrected. So it seems reasonable to assume that even though he doesn't completely rip away Lux's soul when he kills her, Thresh might absorb a bit of her essence, thus increasing his own power. Same with Kha, except that he would be eating bits of the corpses that champions leave on the Field before they respawn. (and before anyone says that there's no visual indication of that...well, Riot has made it pretty clear they don't want to venture fully into "M" game territory, and Kha ripping into a young girl's (Annie's) corpse would be a straight ticket to exactly that.)

Now, by doing this they would indeed be getting less benefit than finding these people outside the League and killing them, they would have a much more reliable and consistent source of power.

I feel like Nami may have been in kind of a damned if she does or if she doesn't situation. Either she can just wander Runeterra, hoping to find the Moonstone wielder with a deadline looming, or she can join the League, vastly increasing her chances of finding information, but at the cost of being randomly ripped away from her quest to fight. I'm not sure which would be the correct choice, but either certainly seems reasonable, and only one ends with her being a playable character :P


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