@Riot Black Cleaver changes

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ThinWhiteDuke

Senior Member

01-21-2013

A well thought out post detailing why the current proposed changes to the public beta environment will cripple AD casters if implemented:

To begin with lets go through the changes:

1. Bloodthirster will cost an extra 200 gold.

2. Black cleaver lost 50 health and requires more applications to reach the same % pen.

3. Plate of the Warmage introduced- early armor/ability power item that now builds into zhonyas.

4. Buffs to AP items such as deathfire grasp and maybe zhonyas (hard to tell as now has a new recipe and total cost)

It’s clear these changes are designed to assist AP casters lane against AD casters/assassins. While it’s true that Ad casters are becoming more popular in mid-lane these changes are excessive- here’s why:

1. The strength of Bloodthirster and Black Cleaver led riot to nerf several of the AD casters/assassins that utilize them- e.g Talon and kha’zix. Now that the items themselves are being nerfed these champions will likely be sub-par.

2. Sending an AD caster mid is a double edged sword. By replacing the AP carry with another AD champion you limit the types of damage your team can deal. Teams that lack a significant source of AP are extremely easy to itemize against- the opposing AP mid for instance can run AP blues and should the enemy team have an AP jungler (e.g Dianna and Amumu) they can do the same. The opposing tank can also stack armor which seems to be getting cheaper as well.

3. Other carries, both AP and AD (botlane) tend to be ranged. Keep in mind that most if not all AD casters and assassins are melee ranged (jayce being an exception). This opens them up to harass during the laning phase and makes them more vulnerable than both adc’s and ranged AP mids during teamfights. And at the very least more vulnerable AP mids (namely those with melee auto-attack ranges) there’s rod of ages, zhonyas, rylai’s and now liandry’s. Ad casters get no such build options, which when combined with their melee range (distinguishing them from the also squishy adc) and inherent squishiness means they’re more easily focused.

That being said there is a problem. Should AD assassins/casters (talon, kha, zed, panth) be able to 100-0 an adc on a full spell rotation? Yes that’s their job. The problem arises when full tanks are being shredded due to the sheer amount of % pen now available in the game.

Fixes: Replace the % pen on Black Cleaver. While Black cleaver and Last whisper exist in the same game Ad casters and assassins will either be game-breakingly overpowered (being able to tear through carries and tanks alike) or absolutely terrible (unable to kill anything before getting bursted down).

A new item should be created which builds out of longsword (like vamp scepter) but gives attack damage and spellvamp rather than lifesteal.

This item + Brutalizer should build into a new black cleaver which offers:

+50 attack damage
+ 20 flat pen
+ 10% cdr
+ 20% spellvamp

Some ability modifier (e.g Your abilities deal a bonus 20% damage to champioms)
Basically anything an AD caster/assassin would want with a deathcap-esque passive to even the score. Of course these numbers will need to be tuned but you get the idea.

This way AD casters/assasins will be able to chunk down squishy targets while the lack of too much % pen (just last whisper) will keep tanks tanky.
Thoughts?


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ThinWhiteDuke

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Forums move fast


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True Bandito

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Senior Member

01-21-2013

I am all for reducing AD bruisers' effectiveness. Currently majority of mages simply can't compete in SR due to the over abundance of the AD bruisers. Not to mention RIDICULOUS amount of ArPen that can be bought had rendered armor useless to get. I don't want to see a 300 armor tank getting shredded easily by bruisers, whom tank is supposed to counter against..


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ebood

Member

01-21-2013

let ad casters die for all i care
they've been ridiculously OP to the point that 300 armor 4k hp against full ad team means NOTHING at all


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ThinWhiteDuke

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebood View Post
let ad casters die for all i care
they've been ridiculously OP to the point that 300 armor 4k hp against full ad team means NOTHING at all
Only because of the ridiculous amount of % pen that currently exists, something which I'm trying to address.


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Gaeta

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinWhiteDuke View Post
Thoughts?
Welcome to the preseason, where Riot has specifically stated they will be making big, sweeping changes on a regular basis in exploration and preparation for Season 3.


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Noraver

Senior Member

01-21-2013

I, for one, am glad Black Cleaver is getting nerfs.

I'm tired of playing League Of Cleavers.

And just FYI, no, you cannot "stack armor" and be safe against a Black Cleaver team.
Why do you think people are buying Warmog's instead of 200 armor?
Because health at this point, protects you from it more than armor does.

Also, 20% increased damage to champions on your item?
..Now I know you're one of those players that stacks Black Cleaver. -_-


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Maximum Riven

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Lets suppose you're playing Riven, an AD caster.

FULL RECIPE BT now costs a whopping 200 gold more, at which point you'll probably follow it with a GA assuming you're eating any focus at all, and you'll probably build LW before finishing your BC because frankly the application was already underwhelming compared to the flat 35% armor ignore on LW when you are already getting pen and CDR from the brutalizer in laning.

These changes aren't huge, and if anything the make AP mages somewhat viable again (though I'm still pretty sure quite a few AD casters will DEMOLISH the mids they are typically fielded against). They are hardly crippling.


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Jibamao

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Senior Member

01-21-2013

Ap players ruin everything.


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ThinWhiteDuke

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noraver View Post
I, for one, am glad Black Cleaver is getting nerfs.

I'm tired of playing League Of Cleavers.

And just FYI, no, you cannot "stack armor" and be safe against a Black Cleaver team.
Why do you think people are buying Warmog's instead of 200 armor?
Because health at this point, protects you from it more than armor does.

Also, 20% increased damage to champions on your item?
..Now I know you're one of those players that stacks Black Cleaver. -_-
I said the numbers should be tweaked, and I don't see how a boost in ability damage (a unique passive of course) would be detrimental. There has always been discussion of such an item being implemented (% boost to AD) but Riot realized ad carries would abuse such an item with their ridiculous crits. The bonus on this item only applies to abilities and frankly the removal of the 25% extra pen means that this bonus dmg will mean little to tanks/armor stackers and just help AD casters/assassins do their job (kill squishies).