Mid is losing lane. Give him blue buff.

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Mothalius

Senior Member

01-22-2013

No. 95% of the time you lose mid lane, it's not because you didn't have that extra bit of mp5/cdr. It's because you made mistakes/got outplayed. I'm yawning over the fact that when I'm jungling, and my mid is losing lane hard, he gets mad I don't give him blue.

I'll give mid the second blue buff always. If after that I see that the enemy mid got away with barely any health, yes I'll continue to give you blue. If they got away with half their health. No, sorry. I'm not giving the enemy mid our blue.

Just because you go mid, that does not mean blue buff is automatically yours. I'm tired of this misconception.


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Chopinator

Senior Member

01-22-2013

I second that.

If you get beat down with second blue to you then I am more than likely giving 3rd, 4th, ect.. to either Top, Support or ADC.


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Snipawolfe

Senior Member

01-22-2013

"Oh, you gave my blue to the enemy laner? Guess you don't want it then. I'll take the next one."

If I'm jungle, I often don't give up blue unless it's asked for and even then, I consider who will benefit more from it.

If I'm mid and I'm losing, I figure I'll feed the blue. If I'm winning, I don't really need it. I only really want it when I'm going even and want the edge or if I'm in a lane like Swain/Aniv/Syndra vs. someone like Vlad, who doesn't even need mana.


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Fwizzard

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Junior Member

01-22-2013

I would just like to point out even know I agree with OP that sometimes your match up has the ability to push quickly and requires lots of mana management to sustain in lane or blue


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C9 SingSing

Senior Member

01-22-2013

If they are getting killed outside of jungle help, more than once, I recommend not giving it to your mid.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Blue buff gives more than mana regen.


And if you're like Chopinator and passing blue buff off to another laner rather than to mid lane because you feel they can do more with it than your mid (I like passing blue to an ADC like Ezreal if I'm purple team, or to a top laner like Jax if I'm blue team if it's not going to mid). And if you're playing an assassin jungle and constantly non-stop ganking (like Diana or Evelynn maybe), I can kind of see it staying on the jungle.


But most of the time when these threads come up, the jungler just wants to keep the buffs for himself. And I don't necessarily understand why.

The jungle buffs do not belong to the jungler. They are not his to give away. The buffs belong to the team, and as the jungler, it's your job to decide who will make best use of the buffs. And often times, laners don't ask for the buffs as a courtesy to the jungler. When I'm laning, I assume the jungler knows more about what's going on in all three lanes than I do (unless I'm support), and let him make the decision on who to pass the buffs to.

And yea, if the mid lane is just feeding, I wouldn't want to pass blue to them, because it probably means it'll just go straight to the enemy mid.

But if he's not feeding, but merely losing lane, why wouldn't I give blue to him? I mean, if he's losing lane and the other lanes are doing fine, what are my options as the jungler? I can give blue to my mid and maybe he can start doing better, or I can give blue to someone else (possibly myself) and then camp mid lane so we don't lose because of how fed the enemy mid is getting.

The mana regen on blue buff is nice. For a mid laner, it can mean the difference between whether or not he has to return to base and refill his mana pool... and that can mean a LOT of experience.



And while I agree that not having blue buff (if the enemy also doesn't have blue buff) is not an excuse for losing lane, I don't agree that a mid losing lane should have blue buff withheld from him automatically.

Most of the time when I'm jungling, I feel like I'm running around putting out fires. I always hope that there's at least one lane on my team that just crushes the enemy lane so I can focus on the other two lanes, but no matter what the situation. The more you can do as the jungler (especially in the season 3 jungle when there's more gold and XP available on your jungle monsters) to avoid having to gank, the better your winning chances.

This doesn't mean you can win without ganking. No. But you should be ganking because it will secure a kill and help put your team ahead. You shouldn't be ganking because a lane is failing hard and you need to show up just to relieve some pressure. When that's happening, you're spending time going to lanes without getting kills, and you're missing out on experience and gold.


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adc

Member

01-22-2013

"And while I agree that not having blue buff (if the enemy also doesn't have blue buff) is not an excuse for losing lane, I don't agree that a mid losing lane should have blue buff withheld from him automatically."

I'd just like to say that it actually CAN be the difference between winning and losing. If I'm playing Anivia and you don't give me blue buff because I died once, or I can't instantly kill the enemy mid laner in one trade (which makes sense, you know, since I'm Anivia), I'm going to lose. Horribly. Anivia's entire lane centers around having a LOT of mana to wave clear with. Cassiopeia is the same thing - her mana costs are huge, and she needs a blue buff to be able to harass effectively.

If I'm playing a hero like Yi or Katarina, I can understand it. But there are a lot of mid lane heroes who rely on having that mana regen to do well.


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wrsthnsatn667

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Senior Member

01-22-2013

I agree, IF they are losing, take it if you can do better.

However, if they AREN'T losing, and you take the blue buff then they lose, it's your fault.

I main Evelynn, for example. I recently had a game where I was 2/0, and about to snowball. My jungle decided to take blue because I didn't get there quick enough. That blue buff could have snowballed me even more, as it turned a possible double kill for me, to just my death.

Now I agree, it was my fault that I messed up, went OOM, and should have known that without it being easier to spam, I should have played differently. Yes, it was my fault that I made those mistakes.

However: I'm more to making the point not so much in the stats of the blue buff, but the play style. Having blue permits a different playstyle, and allows you get to away with high-risk high-reward type of behavior. It IS still their fault for not playing in the style according to their lack of blue, but blue buff is really helpful, and that different playstyle allowance can be pretty key.

If your mide lane is 0/6 to their mid, then a blue buff might not help much. If they're 0/1, maybe a soft 0/2 (if they're winning in CS), then a blue buff can help through playstyle differentials.

In closing, I reiterate that it is not anyone's fault but the mid lane if, in my example, they played improperly and should have known better because they didn't have blue. I am just saying that had they been given the blue, they may have gotten the kill and escaped alive and whatnot.

If you take the blue buff, make sure you utilize it well, whoever on the team gets it. The ADC can have it for all I care, as long as he gets out of it equal to or more than what someone else might have.


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zliplus

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Senior Member

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Flagrock

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
Blue buff gives more than mana regen.
But most of the time when these threads come up, the jungler just wants to keep the buffs for himself. And I don't necessarily understand why.

The jungle buffs do not belong to the jungler. They are not his to give away. The buffs belong to the team, and as the jungler, it's your job to decide who will make best use of the buffs. And often times, laners don't ask for the buffs as a courtesy to the jungler. When I'm laning, I assume the jungler knows more about what's going on in all three lanes than I do (unless I'm support), and let him make the decision on who to pass the buffs to.

And yea, if the mid lane is just feeding, I wouldn't want to pass blue to them, because it probably means it'll just go straight to the enemy mid.

But if he's not feeding, but merely losing lane, why wouldn't I give blue to him? I mean, if he's losing lane and the other lanes are doing fine, what are my options as the jungler? I can give blue to my mid and maybe he can start doing better, or I can give blue to someone else (possibly myself) and then camp mid lane so we don't lose because of how fed the enemy mid is getting.

The mana regen on blue buff is nice. For a mid laner, it can mean the difference between whether or not he has to return to base and refill his mana pool... and that can mean a LOT of experience.

And while I agree that not having blue buff (if the enemy also doesn't have blue buff) is not an excuse for losing lane, I don't agree that a mid losing lane should have blue buff withheld from him automatically.

Most of the time when I'm jungling, I feel like I'm running around putting out fires. I always hope that there's at least one lane on my team that just crushes the enemy lane so I can focus on the other two lanes, but no matter what the situation. The more you can do as the jungler (especially in the season 3 jungle when there's more gold and XP available on your jungle monsters) to avoid having to gank, the better your winning chances.

This doesn't mean you can win without ganking. No. But you should be ganking because it will secure a kill and help put your team ahead. You shouldn't be ganking because a lane is failing hard and you need to show up just to relieve some pressure. When that's happening, you're spending time going to lanes without getting kills, and you're missing out on experience and gold.
First, I want to say as a jungler I get extremely annoyed when people say this: "jungle buffs do not belong to the jungler". This irritates me because people will then start complaining how "they should have blue" and go on and on when I don't give them the 2nd blue on a jungler like Amumu when they are sitting on a champ with no mana problems. The jungle buffs IN LANING are the JUNGLERS'. Also, this is another thing that bothers me a lot, but it just might be me, I've had a lot of people think that wraiths are mid's farm not the jungler and he shouldn't grab them. I've even had mids go as far as stealing wolves from me. The jungler sometimes needs blue buff for the utility and high amount of xp it gives because he is behind. I hate that most people act like the jungle is their playground and they can go take whatever they want from it... even when the jungler is going over to grab that camp. As a jungler, if I walked in say mid or top and started taking their cs I would be yelled at and reported for trolling since "I stole their cs and farm". So why do that to your jungler? I can understand grapping wraiths when a jungler's ganking top, but in laning the jungle is for that guy with smite jungling, not you Mr. Mid. If you want wraiths go steal theirs don't hurt your jungler by walking over and taking his gold/xp. (Sorry it happens so much it's annoying...)

Now tbh, Blue can make or break a mid lane. A quick blue on Ryze will allow me to spam my abilities to stack my Tear fast and harass people out of lane. On Veigar, I can get more Q farm getting higher AP and then I can also burst and kill people faster. On a Morgana, Anivia, Ahri, etc. that mana can mean life through spell vamp or farming from far away. Blue can make a struggling mid win. So, unless you absolutely need it and they ask and are struggling try to let them grab it. Also, 1 death isn't as big as you are making it sound... I've had bad trades before and died first in lane to only come back and get 5 kills on them. On the flip side, the mid should not expect that buff. It drives me crazy when mids will come over and try to take it without me pinging/telling them because half the time on my junglers (Amumu, Skarner, and Olaf for massive ganks) that's how I live in the jungle. I feel that it's best to be polite about the buffs and allow the jungler to do their job which is jungle objective control... That means they are RESPONSIBLE for controlling baron, dragon, and buffs. If Baron and Dragon are not warded I blame and take blame (when jungling) for that. Your jungler should be warding that since that's his whole role.


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