"we lose bcuz u aren't tanky, malphite"

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Snipawolfe

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
Yet you're putting the entire blame on them.

Even if they were playing better, your team still probably would have lost because instead of a tank, they had a glass cannon Malphite who was getting melted pretty quickly. Just because they were playing bad, and probably even worse than you, doesn't mean you're completely innocent of blame for the loss.

IF they were playing better, I'd have taken more blame for the loss because I was a glassy Malphite. I also never said I entirely blame my team. I just don't know what I could have done to help even if I was tanky. I even ganked Ryze twice during the laning phase, killing him both times and putting him behind Kha'Zix.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Again, whether or not this particular game was winnable and whether or not you deserve the brunt of the blame does not change the fact that you weren't doing much to contribute to a winning effort.


Were you the best player on your team? Maybe. Does that matter if you lost anyway? Nope.


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Snipawolfe

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
Again, whether or not this particular game was winnable and whether or not you deserve the brunt of the blame does not change the fact that you weren't doing much to contribute to a winning effort.


Were you the best player on your team? Maybe. Does that matter if you lost anyway? Nope.
How is taking their most fed player out of the game not contributing to a winning effort? I was still alive after every time and it was very much a 5v4 at that point in time during the teamfight, assuming my team didn't throw themselves on to Mundo's Cleavers or Xin's spear and die instantly.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Because you're playing Malphite. No matter how you build him, you're never going to have enough damage to take out all 5 of their players. Your job as Malphite is to keep them busy and hold them off while your teammates take them out.

Your ADC? Caitlyn? If she plays well and builds right, she can put out enough damage to kill off their entire team.

Sounds like in this particular match she happened to not be all that great. But just because she wasn't capable of holding up her end doesn't mean you're excused from holding up your end no matter what your KDA looked like.

If you want to play a bruiser that builds damage and has a set of skills designed for chasing down the enemy carries and taking them out, then pick a champion like that.

But by picking Malphite and doing that, you're creating a lot of problems.

First off, Malphite isn't going to be as good at it as a lot of other champions who were designed to do what you're doing.

Second off, at champion select, when your team sees you select Malphite, they've got a certain expectation of how you're going to play (just as you have a certain expectation of how your Caitlyn might play) and they may select champions to mesh around that and pick an appropriate team comp. When you get in and play completely differently, that screws with that.

Third, if you're not serving front line duty as Malphite, who is? And you're not. Even if you were the first in, you're not playing an appropriate front line role with the build I saw you had.





If you want to play this style, I've got a whole list of champions that are better suited for doing this sort of stuff AND people KNOW that's the point of that champion so your teammates will mostly be expecting you to play that way.


At a very minimum, at champion select, you've got a duty to either make sure your team has someone else playing as your tanky front liner or explain to your teammates that that's now how you're playing Malphite.


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Snipawolfe

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
Because you're playing Malphite. No matter how you build him, you're never going to have enough damage to take out all 5 of their players. Your job as Malphite is to keep them busy and hold them off while your teammates take them out.

Your ADC? Caitlyn? If she plays well and builds right, she can put out enough damage to kill off their entire team.

Sounds like in this particular match she happened to not be all that great. But just because she wasn't capable of holding up her end doesn't mean you're excused from holding up your end no matter what your KDA looked like.

If you want to play a bruiser that builds damage and has a set of skills designed for chasing down the enemy carries and taking them out, then pick a champion like that.

But by picking Malphite and doing that, you're creating a lot of problems.

First off, Malphite isn't going to be as good at it as a lot of other champions who were designed to do what you're doing.

Second off, at champion select, when your team sees you select Malphite, they've got a certain expectation of how you're going to play (just as you have a certain expectation of how your Caitlyn might play) and they may select champions to mesh around that and pick an appropriate team comp. When you get in and play completely differently, that screws with that.

Third, if you're not serving front line duty as Malphite, who is? And you're not. Even if you were the first in, you're not playing an appropriate front line role with the build I saw you had

If you want to play this style, I've got a whole list of champions that are better suited for doing this sort of stuff AND people KNOW that's the point of that champion so your teammates will mostly be expecting you to play that way.

At a very minimum, at champion select, you've got a duty to either make sure your team has someone else playing as your tanky front liner or explain to your teammates that that's now how you're playing Malphite.
First: It works fine. Who would do it better? Who crits for over 1.2k (three times consecutively before an enemy hits the ground after being knocked up...) with just BT, IE, and SOTD? Nobody else, not even Zed, has a 40% AD steroid with no exceptions or strings attached outside of a cooldown and an active time of six seconds or so. Mundo or maybe Xin Zhao could do that damage, but I wouldn't put money on it. Even then, they wouldn't have the gap closer and slows.

Second: I told them I'd play AD Malphite. Everybody really wanted the champs/roles they had though (we actually had the Yi, Kha'zix, and Zyra fighting over mid almost until the game started).

Third: I didn't intend to serve front line.


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PogoPogoPogoPogo

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Okay, so on your third point of not serving front line... who was going to do it? Yi, Kha'zix, Zyra, or Caitlyn?

As for your first point... you don't need a 40% AD steroid kill a player quickly.

Do you know how Jax works? Hextech Gunblade's active is going to do a good chunk of damage, Counter Stirke means you're about to stun everyone... Leap Strike in for a chunk of damage, auto-attack with a Sheen proc for another huge chunk of damage, Empower auto-attack. Then your next auto-attack will have your ultimate passive on it for another huge chunk of damage. If they're not dead over the span of this whole second of your combo, you say the phrase "ha jax stronk" and before you're done, W is ready again, and this time it gets the Sheen proc.


And guess what? Jax can do this from like... the 20 minute mark. Jax doesn't need to stack Infinity Edge and Bloodthirster and tons and tons of AD to accomplish all of that. Jax just needs Hextech Gunblade and Sheen. Anything on top of that just makes him stronger. Those two items cost less than half your three items.


And you know what the best part about Jax is? He's not relying on a 60 second cooldown item. What are his cooldowns? 6 seconds on Leap Strike, 3 seconds on Empower.

Malphite with Sword of the Devine can dish out a lot of damage. Once per teamfight.

If the enemy team has more than one fed champion and you're playing squishy Malphite, or if the enemy is building much armor, you're not going to accomplish much with Malphite. What happens if you get hit with a stun before you can take out the enemy carry? Now SOTD and your AD steroid are on cooldown and you're out of position. And squishy.


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Snipawolfe

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PogoPogoPogoPogo View Post
Okay, so on your third point of not serving front line... who was going to do it? Yi, Kha'zix, Zyra, or Caitlyn?
Like I said, they fought over mid until 5-10 seconds of the game starting (with the exception of Caitlyn). Hard to build a team when the team is fighting over positions until the last second.

If the jungler was a tanky jungler instead of Yi and he still went 0/7, he wouldn't have been tanky at all. Pretty irrelevant to ask who would have been the front line if they wouldn't have had the gold required to even be tanky if they played the same way.

I'm not talking about in terms of general gameplay or general team composition. I'm talking about only this game. Would being tanky be better for a team like mine? Sure. It wouldn't have mattered in this game and that's all I'm saying.

And for what it's worth, just because SOTD is down doesn't mean I can't fight. I still have 1k damage crits and lifesteal along with splash damage if the targets are close to each other. Jax also has much less initial disruption and his gap closer is much shorter range than Malphite's. Would Jax be better? Probably (though, I've never managed to just destroy an enemy carry in a teamfight before when most of the rest of my team was behind). It doesn't mean I didn't have fun or not be a serious anticarry with the AD Malphite build which would have worked exceedingly well if the gold values were anywhere close to even between our teams. But they weren't.

I was never hit with a stun because I was always catching the enemy, not the other way around. Taric also didn't peel for MF, instead opting to go and stun Kha'zix or maybe Caitlyn. The only time I died in a real teamfight setting was when I tried to ult over a wall and "Unstoppable Force" didn't live up to its name and decided a wall would stop it. Maybe my cursor was too close to the wall and it landed "in" it, deciding to not go over.


Anyways, you're missing the point entirely. Half of my team fed and lost their lanes, then they blamed me for not being tanky. It wouldn't have mattered in this game. I'm not saying I'm not to blame. I'm 20% of the blame since it's a 5 man game. I'm just saying, they should also evaluate how their own actions are affecting the outcome of the game and not just go "Malphite not follow meta, so we lose."


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SeCKS Egai

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snipawolfe View Post
No, if anything, I'm increasing our chances of winning exponentially by rocketing into the enemy team and destroying their fed Miss Fortune (or Ryze, but he got too tanky to do that to) in 3 auto attacks with my SoTD/AD build. You guys don't have the coordination and damage to do anything but die regardless of my build. Our Caitlyn lacks the ability to right click while I'm exploding the enemy carry, our Kha'Zix (despite being fed) doesn't know how or when to engage, and our Yi makes horrible choices which is why he's 0/7.

So, no. We aren't losing because of my non-meta Malphite build. We're losing because you guys gave Mundo a 12 minute Warmogs, had an AD mid, and can't coordinate during teamfights.

/rage

tl;dr : "Dear Diary entry #1421316"
As someone who's carried some really sad teams in the last few days, your logic is pretty flawed.

You can't blame kha'zix for not engaging or initiating - that was your responsibility as a malphite. If he's capable enough to get fed, then he realizes he's an assassin and not the tank/off-tank you think he's supposed to be.

Taking out the enemy carry is fine - but what about protecting your own? If your carry is getting slammed, expecting the carry to somehow tank, peel and focus your target is a complete lack of experience.

You place so much blame on your teammates, but you yourself did nothing to compensate for their weakness, which is why you're still ranked in that elo.

Initiation is important, but who's protecting the squishy folk. Obviously you weren't as you were basically playing Mal as an assassin and bursting down the ad carry. Killing one person doesn't matter if there's no one able to soak up some abuse as all those squishy damage dealers are easy prey, especially if you already knew they were behind.

Instead of being a damage soak and helping to peel for your own carry, the enemy team could basically wipe your team out with you probably running away.

Don't get me wrong, when I first started, I placed too much emphasis on individual skill and was quick to write off losses to bad teammates. But several hundred games later and a long break, I came to realize that anyone can win with a good team - what makes a good player stand out is their ability to compensate and succeed with a lousy one.


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Snipawolfe

Senior Member

01-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by xSeCKSx
You can't blame kha'zix for not engaging or initiating
I merely said he didn't know how or when to, which is EXTREMELY critical to being an assassin. If you'd bother reading my other posts, you'd know that I was the first into the fight and I almost always caught MF. Their carry was much more fed than ours (ours had 3 kills, theirs had 11 and was up by >50cs). Why defend my carry if theirs will melt us and I'm the only one capable of killing her?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xSeCKSx
but what about protecting your own? If your carry is getting slammed, expecting the carry to somehow tank, peel and focus your target is a complete lack of experience.
She has a support Zyra for that. The Zyra was playing/building straight AP though, and I guess she didn't use her snare on Xin Zhao or her ult to disengage the Taric, Mundo, and Xin. (And Taric seemed more concerned about messing with Zyra/Cait/Kha'zix, so I just blew up MF and Ryze)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xSeCKSx
You place so much blame on your teammates, but you yourself did nothing to compensate for their weakness, which is why you're still ranked in that elo.
I never said anything about ELO. It was a normals match. The whole prevailing "you're playing a tanky champ and you didn't follow the meta, so we lost" mindset is what aggravates me. The game wasn't even close AND it was just normals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xSeCKSx
Initiation is important, but who's protecting the squishy folk.....
Instead of being a damage soak and helping to peel for your own carry, the enemy team could basically wipe your team out with you probably running away.
Again, why protect my squishies if their squishies can kill us if we do so? You're also contradicting yourself because you told me I should initiate earlier, and now I should peel? It doesn't work like that. I can't be everywhere at once. In my opinion, taking out the fed MF and/or Ryze was much more important than defending our weaker Caitlyn. All MF had to do was use bullet time and it'd destroy our squishy team. In essence, killing their carries was protecting my squishies. Still, they managed to be caught by Taric and the Xin Zhao I crushed in lane a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xSeCKSx
But several hundred games later and a long break, I came to realize that anyone can win with a good team - what makes a good player stand out is their ability to compensate and succeed with a lousy one.
You can't succeed with a lousy team. If you can rally them and get them to work together, sure, but you have to change how THEY play. You can't do it without giving orders or telling people what to do. When people don't listen, there's nothing you can do.


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C9 SingSing

Senior Member

01-22-2013

If you are playing pure AP Malphite and you are indeed destroying their enemy ADC, you are doing everything AP Malphite should be doing. Regardless, if you were the only person who could effectively build full tank you have indeed let your team down with your choice of items, as it hurts your overall team comp to have a squishy Malphite and no one to be in the front line.