Questions Regarding Summoner's Code/Tribunal

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YouShallSeppuku

Junior Member

01-21-2013

Sooo.. Maybe someone here will actually answer. Since, as I send questions to Riot, I get pre-forumalted responses which display Riot's pure disregard of my actual message. I get it, they get tons of questions and most are raging players who've been banned. Thus, I inquire here:

First: Why does Riot not follow it's own Summoner's Code? This is copy/paste from the "Code."

"Player feedback is an important force in the decision making process of Riot Games. If you want to make your voice heard, taking the time to let us know how youíre feeling about the game is a good place to start. When you give feedback, make sure you take a holistic approach. If you only give negative feedback, you may find that the changes you influence detract from what you initially enjoyed. Moreover, people are simply more likely to listen if you present yourself in a calm, well thought out manner. That being said, donít be afraid to tell us if you feel strongly, and why. Try to be straightforward, specific, and always try to make your feedback direct and concise".

They hardly ever ACTUALLY respond to inquiries. I highly doubt they even read the majority of questions/inquiries. Can I report Riot? Also, please don't respond here if you're not willing to have an open mind. I don't "hate" Riot. I don't dis-like everything about the Tribunal. In fact, I'll state what I like about it first.

1. Riot's desire to maintain a positive gaming environment is commendable.
2. Riot's desire to help encourage this environment by placing actual players in "control" of which players remain in the system - that they themselves are a part of - is an interesting and most likely innovative method of doing so.
3. Summoner's Code presents some very good guidelines for how one should play LoL.


So, I got suspended. I accepted my suspension. I've served my suspension. I am no longer suspended. No questions regarding my suspension. I got voted yes, sure, whatever. I'll accept it. First time offender (as in, one time suspension-receiver). I didn''t mind sitting out a few days. Here's my case, in case anyone is interested. (Don't come on here stating "You deserved this," "etc" "etc" -- I'm not here asking to be unsuspended or claiming "I don't deserve this." Please, read my post, unlike Riot -- I'm not perfect, I've said things I shouldn't. I accept that).

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/en/case/6012810/

-- lesson learned.

Now, to my questions:

I posted an inquiry to Riot. I mean, they ask that we do so. So I did. There is a file attachment of the inquiry linked (I posted it in 2 parts, because it was too large to do so in one). Here is a web-link to it, as well. I post both, because when I went to my inquiry, I had to log in with my email, which may mean that you guys can't see it unless you log in with my email --- ain't happenin.
Here's the link -- https://support.leagueoflegends.com/requests/4431093

I'm so glad they "deemed" this "solved."

Before we continue -- and anyone responds... Let's be reminded of a portion of the Summoner's Code:
"When you choose to participate in a discussion with the rest of the playerbase, always try to be receptive to another playerís point of view. If you keep an open mind, youíd be surprised what valuable information you can glean from your fellow players. Also, be mindful of how you present your point of view. If a player feels strongly on a subject, donít get caught up trying to have the last word. Just state your side and exit the conversation gracefully rather than give them the opportunity to pick a fight."

Ok, with that out of the way.

This is my biggest problem with the Tribunal Process. People who "Condemn" - or, even earlier, those who "Report" - do NOT take this portion into consideration:

" If someoneís really starting to bother you, the mute and ignore commands are always there to resolve the situation.

And remember, while nobody likes being insulted, it pays to take a moment to consider the circumstances. Remember that this is a competitive game, and, more often than not, the other player is just venting their frustration. Try not to take it personally. Everyone has a breaking point and everyone rages sometimes. At some point you may find yourself in the other personís shoes."

If they did, there would not be as many suspensions.

First, what I like (Positivity first!)
1. Encourages respect.
2. Let's people know they can ignore people, and that's ok.
3. Let's people know this is just a game, don't take things personally.

Things I don't like:
1. People can report for 1 word, just one, and this portion of the "Code" suddenly becomes "forgotten."
2. People take things personally all the time, and, well, see the last portion of #1 (under "don't like").
3. People just ignore this portion all together. Why not? It's easier to just click "Report." Right?


Calling people "bad" says nothing about one's personal character or being. Merely how one did in game. I don't say it anymore; not because I think it's wrong, but because I must abide by how people vote in the Tribunal -- not the actual Summoner's Code, mind you.

Which, leads to my likes/dislikes concerning the Tribunal Process.
1. See above: Gives power to players/encourages respect
2. Allows players to see what's being reported -- thus what to encourage/avoid.
3. Let's players take the reigns and have a say in the community.

What I don't like:
1. People spam vote "Punish/Pardon." -- More to this later.
2. People don't actually read the code, they merely vote by their "gut feeling." -- There is no rationale behind the majority of people's voting tendencies.... If someone feels like there was wrong, then there must have been.
3. The process encourages speed. -- Why take time to actually read the transcripts when you can skim them and obviously garner an understanding of the flow of the game, right?
4. Teenagers, Pre-Teens, and even Children play this game and join the Tribunal. I mean, it's bad enough that adults and college students play and participate in the tribunal. Enough pride there... Forget the fact that all these younger people have raging hormones.
5. There's no "Test" to weed out people from condemning/pardoning in the Tribunal.


I figured I'd join the Tribunal process. I went through a few cases, seriously considered who I thought broke the code (the actual code) and pardoned/condemned accordingly. My success rate was below 50%. Then, I went through about 20 cases and just spammed "condemn." -- Success rate jumped above 90%. Who knew, the one case I clicked "Pardon" on was this:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../6137786/#nogo

Someone who actually attacked the personality/mind of a person was pardoned. Sure, he attacked the person's gameplay as well, but also their actual being. In the second game, he openly admitted to being "afk." Not condemnable? I think that's "somewhere" in the code.... right?

If I can spam condemn and increase my percentage that well..... This dude in the last case I "pardoned" did deserve to be there for 2 of the reports he was. I'm not sure how he got pardoned. Do people even read the Summoner's Code? I'm just curious.

Simplest solution that I can think of:
Create a test. Then, people who want to participate in the Tribunal have to actually pass something in order to participate. That way, people who don't understand what's going on can't participate. Those who aren't willing to spend the time to "Care" and actually seriously consider what's going on in the game they're examining, can no longer participate.


Like I said earlier. I'm not complaining about my suspension. I don't care about it. I accepted it. Don't hate-spam me saying I'm just mad I was suspended. I'm not. I'm thankful so many people are suspended that deserve it. Those who are truly hateful and disgraceful in game. But, on the flip-side, I'm also ashamed that Riot has allowed so many cases to be condemned/pardoned just because the "system works." It doesn't entirely. There are too many cases which are condemned which shouldn't be. It's a flawed system. It's not a wholly flawed system, but it is flawed nonetheless.

Improvements ARE possible. Why stop looking for them and just spam "IT WORKS. RIOT SAYS IT WORKS. LET'S BELIEVE AND FOLLOW WITHOUT ACTUALLY CONSIDERING OTHER INSTANCES AND IDEAS." Don't post here unless you're willing to think and consider improvements/alternatives. Don't respond here unless you're willing to read my post for understanding. Don't respond here if you're going to copy/paste a response (as Riot seems to enjoy doing).


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YouShallSeppuku

Junior Member

01-21-2013

Oh, and if my thread "disappears," know that Riot has censored once again. I know of a close individual in real life whose forum account suddenly didn't exist on here after posting a thread regarding the Tribunal.

I'm not going to delete my account. Thus, if it's gone, it wasn't by my own doing.


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Shelzin

Senior Member

01-21-2013

The tribunal does work. It's just not perfect.

And I will respond whenever and however I like. I may feel repercussions for what I say or do, but they sure as hell won't be coming from you.


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Shiister

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

01-21-2013

I doubt your friend account was deleted for posting a thread on Tribunal. I will respond to your thread in a second, you have a lot of fallacies in it.

EDIT:

Quote:
What I don't like:
1. People spam vote "Punish/Pardon." -- More to this later.
People do, but not a majority spam punish, if anything people are spamming pardon on cases where the person obviously deserve punishment.

Quote:
2. People don't actually read the code, they merely vote by their "gut feeling." -- There is no rationale behind the majority of people's voting tendencies.... If someone feels like there was wrong, then there must have been.
This is a assumption. That how Tribunal is suppose to function on, what is the community "opinion" on what should be deemed punishable. I

Quote:
3. The process encourages speed. -- Why take time to actually read the transcripts when you can skim them and obviously garner an understanding of the flow of the game, right?
Most cases all you really do is have to read the offender's purple chat and you will see them breaking the Summoner's Code where you wouldn't have sympathy for them even if their reason for breaking it is valid.

Quote:
4. Teenagers, Pre-Teens, and even Children play this game and join the Tribunal. I mean, it's bad enough that adults and college students play and participate in the tribunal. Enough pride there... Forget the fact that all these younger people have raging hormones.
So what? If the teenagers, pre-teens, and children follow the Summoner's Code and punish the people who break it then whats the problem? I doubt a lot of teenagers and co. do Tribunal since their is really no monetary benefit to receive from it anymore.

Quote:
5. There's no "Test" to weed out people from condemning/pardoning in the Tribunal.
Wrong. If you spam punish/pardon, your Tribunal access can be revoked.

Quote:
I figured I'd join the Tribunal process. I went through a few cases, seriously considered who I thought broke the code (the actual code) and pardoned/condemned accordingly. My success rate was below 50%. Then, I went through about 20 cases and just spammed "condemn." -- Success rate jumped above 90%. Who knew, the one case I clicked "Pardon" on was this:
I find this to be a lie. If you actually voted on cases without no bias and follow the Summoner's Code for what it is, your success rate wouldn't of been that awful.

Quote:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../6137786/#nogo

Someone who actually attacked the personality/mind of a person was pardoned. Sure, he attacked the person's gameplay as well, but also their actual being. In the second game, he openly admitted to being "afk." Not condemnable? I think that's "somewhere" in the code.... right?
As I said before, people go in Tribunal with the intent of spam pardoning. Been a lot of false pardons lately, cases such as these don't reflect on those who actually do the Tribunal the right way.


Quote:
Simplest solution that I can think of:
Create a test. Then, people who want to participate in the Tribunal have to actually pass something in order to participate. That way, people who don't understand what's going on can't participate. Those who aren't willing to spend the time to "Care" and actually seriously consider what's going on in the game they're examining, can no longer participate.
What would the test consist of since you want Riot to do something such as this.


Quote:
Calling people "bad" says nothing about one's personal character or being. Merely how one did in game. I don't say it anymore; not because I think it's wrong, but because I must abide by how people vote in the Tribunal -- not the actual Summoner's Code, mind you.
If you as a person can't play a game without having to insult someone for having a bad game then you shouldn't play Lol.


Quote:
I posted an inquiry to Riot. I mean, they ask that we do so. So I did. There is a file attachment of the inquiry linked (I posted it in 2 parts, because it was too large to do so in one). Here is a web-link to it, as well. I post both, because when I went to my inquiry, I had to log in with my email, which may mean that you guys can't see it unless you log in with my email --- ain't happenin.
Here's the link -- https://support.leagueoflegends.com/requests/4431093
Why give us a link to your support request if we can't see it? You might as well remove this part and just put the Word doc in it's place.


Quote:
This is my biggest problem with the Tribunal Process. People who "Condemn" - or, even earlier, those who "Report" - do NOT take this portion into consideration:

" If someone’s really starting to bother you, the mute and ignore commands are always there to resolve the situation.

And remember, while nobody likes being insulted, it pays to take a moment to consider the circumstances. Remember that this is a competitive game, and, more often than not, the other player is just venting their frustration. Try not to take it personally. Everyone has a breaking point and everyone rages sometimes. At some point you may find yourself in the other person’s shoes."

If they did, there would not be as many suspensions.
So what you are saying, the person who is being raged at should look at it from the rager's shoes and understand why they raging at them and accept it or ignore/mute them. That's like telling someone to suck it up.

If anyone has to ignore/mute someone then they are negatively affecting the person game and should be dealt with. You seem to be putting all the blame on the person who is the victim for "reporting", yet it's not their fault that someone decides to break the Summoner's Code, why can't they step into the person shows and consider they are having a bad game or just unskilled?


Quote:
Don't respond here if you're going to copy/paste a response (as Riot seems to enjoy doing).
Attached Files
File Type: docx Fun With Riot.docx (33.0 KB, 1 views)
I read over the chat between you and the Riot support and looked over your reform card.

You assuming you got banned for calling people "bad" only nor "Teemo [All] [00:31:08] oracles kinda lame in a 3v3.... pathetic tbh". You know that isn't the only reason, you was negative in all of your games, which I will point out at the end.

Quote:
My question: Why is "bad" a derogatory word? It isn't a word which attacks the character or personhood of anyone. It merely comments on one's opinion of another's playing ability. Those who take offense to the word are reading too much into the word. I can't help that people think I'm lowering their status as a human being by calling them "bad." No where in the code does it state not to call someone "bad." In fact, within the "Be Resolute, not Indignant" section of the codes, I think it accounts for this aspect:
Enjoy Yourself, but not at Anyone Else’s Expense
Lead by Example

Both sections of these sections state not to call someone bad. You are trying to spin "Be Resolute, not Indignant" as a shield to excuse your harassment which isn't going to work.

Quote:
Those who take being called "bad" personally ARE breaking the code.
Well, this goes on further to strength my point of you "blaming the victim". You are twisting the Summoner's Code completely.

Quote:
There are just too many reasons one can be banned by either players trolling about or players taking offense to any negative word. Honestly, it's ridiculous that one has to play this game while "walking on egg shells." I understand playing respectfully, and I will make a greater effort to do so. But when you are stuck with seemingly 12 year old children game after game, it wears on you. But, you can't mute your entire team -- which I would do -- because then you'll get reported for "failure to communicate with your team." Lose/Lose situation, as I see it.
After reviewing your reform card, most people would label you a 12 year old with the way you acted, I will quote instances at the end. You can ignore your teammates, just have to state you doing it and have a reason, not to mention hardly anyone report for "failure to communicate".

Quote:
I still don't why "bad" = reportable. I don't understand why stating
"oracles kinda lame in 3v3... pathetic tbh" = reportable.
Pure assumption

Quote:
People who report on a consistent basis ought to be suspended as
well. Because obviously they're not following the Summoner's Code and muted
people.
If someone has to mute you in the game, then you should dealt with, I stated this before and remember a Rioter(Lyte) stating that if someone has to mute you then you are negatively impacting their game and deserve punishment for it.

Quote:
Even if I started to report
people for complaining about others and not muting them, it wouldn't be
condemned in the Tribunal -- which is wrong since it is against the
Summoner's Code.
This don't make sense, since the ones complaining would be the ragers and I assume you meant to say the people who don't ignore someone arguing back with someone when they are harassed and don't mute them should be reported for breaking the SC.

You are twisting the SC, yet again and taking it literal to say that Tribunal is flawed.


Quote:
It's a game. People take this too seriously.
It's a game, so why do you feel the need to belittle others for not doing well?

Now onto your reform card.

Case 1:

Quote:
Teemo [All] [00:22:14] this hecarim.. has been mid all game.. im sorry cho is bad but to camp mid all game?!?! wow
Insulting enemy

Quote:
Teemo [All] [00:29:40] bg report skarner please..
Report garnering is reportable. Also, shouldn't you be banned for taking 1 bad game personal and trying to get someone reported? "Be Resolute, not Indignant" remember?

Case 2:

Quote:
Nunu [00:06:44] and you suck
Insult towards teammate

Quote:
Nunu [00:09:21] graves you suck lol
As above

Quote:
Nunu [00:10:10] teemo
Nunu [00:10:11] you just suck
As above

Quote:
Nunu [All] [00:11:47] ^ report teemo, all he does is rage about how hard he's feeding
Yet again you trying to get someone reported? You sounding like a hypocrite....

Quote:
Karthus [00:29:23] wow
Karthus [00:29:27] nunu stole my blue
Nunu [00:29:27] shouldn't of taken mid from me
You took blue from Karthus to spite him, this is griefing the team and against the SC as you like to use.

Quote:
Nunu [00:30:05] this isn't even my account
Well....if this isn't your account why are you on it? You breaking the Terms of Use, which can get you banned.

Quote:
Nunu [00:33:49] lol karthus is butthurt
This right here would label you as a 12 year old

Case 3:

Quote:
Zyra [All] [00:19:18] nice dodge
Teemo [All] [00:31:08] oracles kinda lame in a 3v3.... pathetic tbh
Zyra [All] [00:31:22] haha well your stacking redick muchrooms
Zyra [All] [00:31:26] i have to counter somehow
Teemo [All] [00:31:31] oracles is only reason you're winning lol
Zyra [All] [00:31:35] meh
Zyra [All] [00:31:43] gg either way
Teemo [All] [00:31:47] we have almost twice the kills?
Teemo [All] [00:31:47] na

Zyra [All] [00:31:52] haha
The entire chat from the game, none of it's punishable, but you are a sore loser which goes against the SC, so you should be punished for it right?

Case 4:

Quote:
Vayne [00:05:04] please..report this taric
Read similar quotes from above

You spent the whole game talking down to Taric and wasn't helping your team considering your score.

Case 5:

Quote:
Karma [All] [00:36:01] report cho
Considering how well Cho did....why would you report him? This is 4th game where you trying to get someone reported, so by what you take as the interpretation of the rules you should be banned, not to mention Cho didn't talk once so probably ignored the team.

You was negative in this game and insulted teammates.


Now back to the chat between you and Riot. You can't use your interpretation of the rules to excuse your behavior when your behavior is in violation of how you see the SC as, and just because you have your own interpretation of the SC don't mean everyone else has the same view on SC and take it literal as you do just to excuse your behavior.

TL;DROverall, your post is good, but shallow and spewing hypocrisy. You try and twist the SC to excuse your behavior and blame people for not obeying what it says, while you, yourself break the rules of how you see the SC.


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Door Of Death

Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
I doubt your friend account was deleted for posting a thread on Tribunal. I will respond to your thread in a second, you have a lot of fallacies in it.

EDIT:



People do, but not a majority spam punish, if anything people are spamming pardon on cases where the person obviously deserve punishment.



This is a assumption. That how Tribunal is suppose to function on, what is the community "opinion" on what should be deemed punishable. I



Most cases all you really do is have to read the offender's purple chat and you will see them breaking the Summoner's Code where you wouldn't have sympathy for them even if their reason for breaking it is valid.



So what? If the teenagers, pre-teens, and children follow the Summoner's Code and punish the people who break it then whats the problem? I doubt a lot of teenagers and co. do Tribunal since their is really no monetary benefit to receive from it anymore.



Wrong. If you spam punish/pardon, your Tribunal access can be revoked.



I find this to be a lie. If you actually voted on cases without no bias and follow the Summoner's Code for what it is, your success rate wouldn't of been that awful.



As I said before, people go in Tribunal with the intent of spam pardoning. Been a lot of false pardons lately, cases such as these don't reflect on those who actually do the Tribunal the right way.




What would the test consist of since you want Riot to do something such as this.




If you as a person can't play a game without having to insult someone for having a bad game then you shouldn't play Lol.




Why give us a link to your support request if we can't see it? You might as well remove this part.
Don't be offended or take the Shiister seriously. He likes to outright display his fanboy side for the tribunal. You can find him in almost any thread discussing the tribunal, especially if there is even just one word said against it, or questioning a suspension.


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YouShallSeppuku

Junior Member

01-21-2013

I appreciate your responses. Shiister, I may have a lot of assumptions - nice observation - but, you do as well. Everyone does. It's impossible not to. Now, to respond to some of your questions/statements:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
I doubt your friend account was deleted for posting a thread on Tribunal. I will respond to your thread in a second, you have a lot of fallacies in it.
I didn't state that he was for sure. It was merely an assumption. He was questioning one of his suspensions and also posting on a few other peoples. He tried to log in the next day, and his account now does not exist. Why it does not exist, I do not know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
People do, but not a majority spam punish, if anything people are spamming pardon on cases where the person obviously deserve punishment.
I don't care what they're spamming... Either way is unacceptable. Do you have proof that a majority spam pardon? If so, I'm interested in seeing this proof. Otherwise = assumption.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
This is a assumption. That how Tribunal is suppose to function on, what is the community "opinion" on what should be deemed punishable.
Really? If this is true, I did not realize it. I'm curious, if we took a Community vote, what the census would be on numerous issues. Additionally, why do we even have a Summoner's Code, if this is the case? I mean, just put in place of the current Summoner's Code: "Community Opinion. If you don't like it, punish. If you do, pardon." Sounds alright to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
Most cases all you really do is have to read the offender's purple chat and you will see them breaking the Summoner's Code where you wouldn't have sympathy for them even if their reason for breaking it is valid.
How many people actually read the non-purple, was my question. Part of the Code was to account for people reacting and going too far when something bad is occurring. Why place my questioned part in the Code if it doesn't matter? This type of behavior -- of merely reading the purple -- clearly breaks the portion of the code which I copy/pasted. That is where the biggest disparity comes into play, I think.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
So what? If the teenagers, pre-teens, and children follow the Summoner's Code and punish the people who break it then whats the problem? I doubt a lot of teenagers and co. do Tribunal since their is really no monetary benefit to receive from it anymore.
Assumption. Why can't we have assumptions, again?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
Wrong. If you spam punish/pardon, your Tribunal access can be revoked.
I realize this. I've already done it, though. Not been revoked yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
I find this to be a lie. If you actually voted on cases without no bias and follow the Summoner's Code for what it is, your success rate wouldn't of been that awful.
I voted on a very small number of cases. It's very easy to get a low success rate when you vote on so few cases. You probably should have looked for how what I claimed to do could be possible before automatically claiming "LIE!" It displays your true bias.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
As I said before, people go in Tribunal with the intent of spam pardoning. Been a lot of false pardons lately, cases such as these don't reflect on those who actually do the Tribunal the right way.
Read above. + = Assumption.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
What would the test consist of since you want Riot to do something such as this.
Questioning people on the intent of the Summoner's Code, on all sections of the Code, on how players should react to other players, etc. Just questions concerning the Code and gameplay -- and any other questions deemed important AFTER consideration and thought. Don't just put questions in to put questions in, make them useful and intentional.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
If you as a person can't play a game without having to insult someone for having a bad game then you shouldn't play Lol.
This is possibly true. But people don't always initiate the insults; sometimes -- gasp, new concept -- they're in response. Even newer concept, not all insults are typed/spoken. You can insult someone -- or people can feel insulted -- without any words spoken. Can the transcript account for these?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
Why give us a link to your support request if we can't see it? You might as well remove this part and just put the Word doc in it's place.
I did both. I wasn't sure if you could see the support request if I posted link. Additionally, this is one of my first posts --if not my first post, I honestly don't know and don't feel like alt-tabbing to figure it out-- on the forums. I just wanted to do both to make sure one of them worked.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
So what you are saying, the person who is being raged at should look at it from the rager's shoes and understand why they raging at them and accept it or ignore/mute them. That's like telling someone to suck it up.

If anyone has to ignore/mute someone then they are negatively affecting the person game and should be dealt with. You seem to be putting all the blame on the person who is the victim for "reporting", yet it's not their fault that someone decides to break the Summoner's Code, why can't they step into the person shows and consider they are having a bad game or just unskilled?
No, not ALL the blame. But a portion of it -- and if you read the Summoner's Code from an outside perspective, it encourages this. I know it's hard to do.. but try to think of it as a mental exercise (since, that truly is what it is). Not once did I place all the blame on the "victim" of the rager. The rager most likely needs to calm down. But, the rager was also probably provoked in some way (not ALWAYS, but from the games I've played in, this does seem to be very common). No one cares about the provocation. No one cares that the rager has emotions which react to instigation. Now, like I stated -- make sure you take note -- the rager DOES need to calm down. But, part of the code accounts for human emotions, and so do players in game. Just hit mute.

What's not even discussed here, is the fact that there are numerous types of rage. The kind of rage occurring also fluctuates depending on the instigation/non-instigation. I'd be interested in an investigation occurring which took account for how the person raged and how their teammates/enemies interacted with them (based off transcript and video replay). There may or may not be a correlation here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
I read over the chat between you and the Riot support and looked over your reform card.

You assuming you got banned for calling people "bad" only nor "Teemo [All] [00:31:08] oracles kinda lame in a 3v3.... pathetic tbh". You know that isn't the only reason, you was negative in all of your games, which I will point out at the end.
The primary thing I did was call people "bad." PRIMARY. Not the sole. Also, my question for the "oracles" game was: Why was that even reportable? Is that truly breaking Summoner's Code? Really?

Also, I appreciate you pointing them out. Really, I'm glad you felt the desire. Gives me the opportunity to respond.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
Enjoy Yourself, but not at Anyone Elseís Expense
Lead by Example

Both sections of these sections state not to call someone bad. You are trying to spin "Be Resolute, not Indignant" as a shield to excuse your harassment which isn't going to work.
Where? Provide me DIRECT quotation and then give me the paragraph number. Citation = key. Or, provide an indirect quotation (i.e. a quotation of the sentences which you think most relates to "calling someone bad")


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
Well, this goes on further to strength my point of you "blaming the victim". You are twisting the Summoner's Code completely.
Thank you. I guess we all have our "twists" of the summoner's Code. That's what happens when the Code is "Community Based."

However, if you read my posts for comprehension, NEVER does "BLAME THE VICTIM" = my only viewpoint. I merely think there is an inbalance. Not that everything is the victim's fault.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
After reviewing your reform card, most people would label you a 12 year old with the way you acted, I will quote instances at the end. You can ignore your teammates, just have to state you doing it and have a reason, not to mention hardly anyone report for "failure to communicate".
Thank you. And, I've started just to ignore my teammates in general. Thanks for your advice, though. And, if you'd read the ENTIRE post, instead of focusing on one aspect, you'd see that I stated "it wears on you." Sure, I stated things that -- according to the LoL Community -- I shouldn't have. I apologize.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
If someone has to mute you in the game, then you should dealt with, I stated this before and remember a Rioter(Lyte) stating that if someone has to mute you then you are negatively impacting their game and deserve punishment for it.
This does NOT excuse them for not muting them. Why put the option to mute people in the game if people are going to be encouraged to not use it...?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
This don't make sense, since the ones complaining would be the ragers and I assume you meant to say the people who don't ignore someone arguing back with someone when they are harassed and don't mute them should be reported for breaking the SC.
Why does this not make sense? You have to place it alongside the rest of my post. Do you truly comprehend the rationality of my argument? Not just what you think I'm claiming, what I'm actually claiming. I'll try again:

Portion of the Summoner's Code I'm referencing:
"If someoneís really starting to bother you, the mute and ignore commands are always there to resolve the situation.
And remember, while nobody likes being insulted, it pays to take a moment to consider the circumstances. Remember that this is a competitive game, and, more often than not, the other player is just venting their frustration. Try not to take it personally. Everyone has a breaking point and everyone rages sometimes. At some point you may find yourself in the other personís shoes."

This CLEARLY encourages the use of the "mute/ignore" commands as a RESOLUTION to situations where a player is being bothered by other players.

Next, "Remember that this is a competitive game, and, more often than not, the other player is just venting their frustration. TRY NOT TO TAKE IT PERSONALLY."

When you do take other people's venting of frustration personally, you ARE breaking the SC. My question from these considerations: Why, when someone is being "bothered" by other players, and they do not "mute/ignore" that bothersome player, but later respond/report, are they not mutually reported? They clearly took what the person was saying personally and clearly ignored the SC. The early resolution to the situation was "ignore/mute."

Obviously, this is NOT a solution to every situation. Please, REREAD that. I don't want you to think: "Oh, this guy doesn't care about victims. All he cares is that victims are banned. They obviously deserve it." False. Some people are just rude and disrespectful. You can't ignore that fact. I'm merely attempting to highlight a discrepancy in the current system through the use of slight exaggeration. (Note, SLIGHT).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
You are twisting the SC, yet again and taking it literal to say that Tribunal is flawed."
Display to me how I'm "twisting the SC" and you are not? Also, contrary to pop--well, at least your--belief, I do NOT think the entire system of the Tribunal is "flawed."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
It's a game, so why do you feel the need to belittle others for not doing well?
That's one of my contentions. I do not think it's belittle'ing others. Merely their gameplay. Now, like I stated, I've since stopped, because I'd rather avoid suspensions. But, avoidance does not = agreement that it's wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
Now onto your reform card.
Thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
Case 1:



Insulting enemy



Report garnering is reportable. Also, shouldn't you be banned for taking 1 bad game personal and trying to get someone reported? "Be Resolute, not Indignant" remember?
I hadn't read the code prior to these games. Thanks, though. Also, pure curiosity, where does it ever state that "Report garnering is reportable"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
Case 2:



Insult towards teammate



As above



As above



Yet again you trying to get someone reported? You sounding like a hypocrite....
Thank you? As I stated -- read this twice, maybe a third time -- I had NOT read the SC before these games. After the suspension, I did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
You took blue from Karthus to spite him, this is griefing the team and against the SC as you like to use.
You're right. (Please note, this is NOT sarcasm -- you truly ARE right)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
Well....if this isn't your account why are you on it? You breaking the Terms of Use, which can get you banned.
I let my brother play on my account for a few games. A few of these are him. If that's against the code and Riot chooses to ban me, so be it. I made my choice. I'm willing to accept the consequences. In fact, I openly claim that here. It's up to them to make the move. Report my post if you so desire.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
This right here would label you as a 12 year old
Thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
Case 3:



The entire chat from the game, none of it's punishable, but you are a sore loser which goes against the SC, so you should be punished for it right?
Yes, actually. If being a "sore loser" contradicts the SC, it should be punishable. I can't wait for all the new suspensions/bans to start flowing in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
Case 4:



Read similar quotes from above

You spent the whole game talking down to Taric and wasn't helping your team considering your score.
You're right. = Accepted Suspension. Thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
Case 5:



Considering how well Cho did....why would you report him? This is 4th game where you trying to get someone reported, so by what you take as the interpretation of the rules you should be banned, not to mention Cho didn't talk once so probably ignored the team.

You was negative in this game and insulted teammates.

Considering how WELL Cho did? 2-3-13 with 25 cs in 36.5 minutes? He was jungler. How is this considering doing well? At. All. This is the one game I HIGHLY disagree with. I truly, TRULY think Cho was a bot. If we had vid replay of this game, a lot of people may agree. He did NOT act or move like a typical/average human player. He didn't even move through the jungle in a normal manner. Could Cho abstaining from typing be explained by another explanation? I think so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
Now back to the chat between you and Riot. You can't use your interpretation of the rules to excuse your behavior when your behavior is in violation of how you see the SC as, and just because you have your own interpretation of the SC don't mean everyone else has the same view on SC and take it literal as you do just to excuse your behavior.
First off: I did NOT excuse my behavior. I accepted the suspension. I know this is so abnormal that it's difficult to accept and operate with. But I truly accepted my suspension. I do not question it. I do not "dislike" it. I accept it. It's happened, I've moved on. I merely wanted to pose some questions regarding the SC, interpretations regarding it, and the process of the Tribunal. I don't want to "just excuse my behavior." I wish you would "get" this. Re-read this paragraph a few times if you need to. I accept that some of my behavior was suspend-worthy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiister View Post
TL;DROverall, your post is good, but shallow and spewing hypocrisy. You try and twist the SC to excuse your behavior and blame people for not obeying what it says, while you, yourself break the rules of how you see the SC.
Thank you? I don't see how it's shallow. You clearly don't understand my intentions. Nor, do you seem to care to take the time to. You respond to things I don't question. You respond to things I don't believe, but you think I believe. You claim that I "twist" the SC to "excuse my behavior and blame people for not obeying what it says," when, not once am I attempting to "excuse my behavior" nor "blame people." I merely had a few questions. A few questions I thought were response-worthy. Questions regarding POTENTIAL discrepancies. This is why I spoke in generalities.

Regardless, from YOUR perspective, it is likely that EVERYONE breaks the SC. Let me explain:
1. The SC = ruling code of LoL.
2. Community understanding of the SC determines what the SC means.
3. There is NOT a general consensus of what the SC means -- if there is, please, link me to the thread or survey which attempted to garner the community's understanding of the SC
4. There will be high disparity in "interpreting" what the SC means -- based upon personal experiences
5. Since most people's interpretations WILL differ in numerous ways -- sometimes merely minute ways -- people will break someone's interpretation of the SC.

Additionally, if the SC IS interpretation based, what makes YOUR interpretation any better than MINE?
-- Just curious.


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YouShallSeppuku

Junior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Door Of Death View Post
Don't be offended or take the Shiister seriously. He likes to outright display his fanboy side for the tribunal. You can find him in almost any thread discussing the tribunal, especially if there is even just one word said against it, or questioning a suspension.
Haha. Thanks. I expected a lot of negative responses, so I won't be taking anything anyone says personally.


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YouShallSeppuku

Junior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelzin View Post
The tribunal does work. It's just not perfect.

And I will respond whenever and however I like. I may feel repercussions for what I say or do, but they sure as hell won't be coming from you.

I agree. The Tribunal does work, and it is not perfect. I think that was what my post was actually about. Maybe you should reread my post before responding.

Also, remember:

"Facilitate Civil Discussion


“To disagree, one doesn't have to be disagreeable.” -Barry Goldwater

As we mentioned earlier, we want you to give feedback, but being part of the community doesn’t stop there. Whether you’re in chat, in a game, or on the forums, there are plenty of people to meet, and plenty of topics to discuss. Whether you’re discussing game balance and champion viability, trying to form a premade team, or just want to express your affection for the legendary and infamous Gentleman Cho’gath, we encourage you to share your thoughts with other players.

When you choose to participate in a discussion with the rest of the playerbase, always try to be receptive to another player’s point of view. If you keep an open mind, you’d be surprised what valuable information you can glean from your fellow players. Also, be mindful of how you present your point of view. If a player feels strongly on a subject, don’t get caught up trying to have the last word. Just state your side and exit the conversation gracefully rather than give them the opportunity to pick a fight."


You're right. No "repercussions" will come from me. Nor should they (unless, Riot introduced a Tribunal system for the forums, as well! That'd be interesting -- but, I digress). No, your repercussions won't come from me, but they could come from Riot.


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KimKelley

Senior Member

01-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by YouShallSeppuku View Post
3. There is NOT a general consensus of what the SC means -- if there is, please, link me to the thread or survey which attempted to garner the community's understanding of the SC

There is a Riot-stated summation of the summoner's code. It is "Don't be a jerk". According to my interpretation of this summation of the Summoner's Code, the voting portion of the Tribunal is 85% accurate (meaning I am wrong 15% of the time). While you can argue the edge cases, you have to understand that your understanding of the Summoner's code led you to the assessment that the Tribunal algorithm (that is, the algorithm that gets someone to the Tribunal), is no more accurate than a coin flip. It is hard for me to take your assessment of proper behavior seriously at that point.

I do agree that any system could be improved. I have yet to see a suggestion in this thread to improve it other than "take a test". What test would you like to see? A test as to whether people have read the Code? I have, thoroughly, and came up with a wildly different interpretation than you have. So I don't foresee a test demonstrably changing the results of the tribunal.


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YouShallSeppuku

Junior Member

01-21-2013

There is a Riot-stated summation. Without testing people on the Riot-stated summation, there is no way to actually tell if people are voting based off this summation. Instead, it's more likely they're voting based on whatever they feel like at the time.

How did you acquire the 85%/15% ratio? Just curious.

My understanding did lead me to my assessment, clearly. But how is that different from anyone else? That's my PRIMARY question. Everyone perceives the SC differently. Everyone. Everyone will pick and choose from the SC what they think is the "worst offense," but not take the ENTIRE code into consideration. That is one of my primary contentions with the SC system. There needs to be something in place which accounts for individuals hyper-focusing on certain aspects of the SC and completely ignoring others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KimKelley View Post
There is a Riot-stated summation of the summoner's code. It is "Don't be a jerk". According to my interpretation of this summation of the Summoner's Code, the voting portion of the Tribunal is 85% accurate (meaning I am wrong 15% of the time). While you can argue the edge cases, you have to understand that your understanding of the Summoner's code led you to the assessment that the Tribunal algorithm (that is, the algorithm that gets someone to the Tribunal), is no more accurate than a coin flip. It is hard for me to take your assessment of proper behavior seriously at that point.

I do agree that any system could be improved. I have yet to see a suggestion in this thread to improve it other than "take a test". What test would you like to see? A test as to whether people have read the Code? I have, thoroughly, and came up with a wildly different interpretation than you have. So I don't foresee a test demonstrably changing the results of the tribunal.