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[Game][Feedback] Plate of the Warmage

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Crevox

Senior Member

01-20-2013

The newest PBE build revealed a new AP item, Plate of the Warmage. This item now builds into Zhonya's Hourglass instead of Chain Vest.

Quote:
Plate of the Warmage
Builds from Cloth Armor + Cloth Armor + Amplifying Tome (300 + 300 + 435 = 1035)

+30 Armor
+25 Ability Power

UNIQUE Passive: Killing a unit grants 0.5 bonus Armor and Ability Power. This bonus stacks up to 30 times.

Cost: 125 (Total: 1160)


This seems like a nifty item, but I actually do not like it. The problem doesn't lie in the passive or the stats.

It's just too expensive. Building this thing sets you up for a Zhonya's later, but compare this to the current scenario. If I'm facing an AD mid or an enemy AD gets really fed, I need to get some armor. My current options are Cloth Armor(s) or a Chain Vest. Currently, I build Chain Vest, because at a cost of 720g, it gives me +40 armor. This amount is satisfactory at a decent price, and will also build into Zhonya's later on.

Compare that to the new situation. If I want armor now, I will have to build Plate of the Warmage. This causes a whole slew of problems:

1. I have to spend 1160g to get LESS armor, in addition to a decent amount of AP. I could just get the Cloth Armor(s), but that takes up more inventory space for less armor even still (600g = 30 armor). This makes it a good idea to wait until you have enough for the entire thing, and that alone will set you back quite a bit of gold and hurt your item flow. It's simply too expensive to warrant purchasing in the situation of "dang, this AD mid is killing me, I need something to get back on equal footing." The only way you'd have this much cash is if you were killing people or farming REALLY well, and you wouldn't be rushing to build it if you were dominating him. If you are losing and you DO take the time and farm to save up for this, you're investing quite a lot into this instead of whatever your main item progression is (which should be toward Deathcap, usually, unless you're a mana hungry champion). It's useful if an enemy AD gets fed and you need an answer should he come your way, but even then you're forced to spend more money than the current option.

2. The passive on it suggests you building it early, leaning it toward being a better early/mid game item. In order to make the most of this item, you need to build it sooner rather than later. If I need armor immediately, this item will provide some armor, but not to the extent of Chain Vest. Eventually it will be a positive benefit, but even still, you're spending more money (440g more) for +5 armor and +40 AP. Yeah, the AP is really nice, but that's NOT why I would go out of my way to build this item: I need armor. When I need armor, I want a quick, efficient answer that will build into something later on. Chain Vest was a decent priced option that cut my damage output growth for a bit, but now we're being forced to get this instead (or the cloth armors, which hurts your inventory space). This means I have to spend more money to get the defense I need. The only real benefit I see is being able to grab a cloth armor after dying/going back as a soft cushion to their damage output without worrying about it being wasted (now it will actually build into something).

The big problem here is that it builds into Zhonya's Hourglass, replacing Chain Vest. Chain Vest fit the niche it needed to do, giving you a decent bulk of armor immediately, when you needed it. It was a modest price and did what it needed to do. Now, we're being forced to get this instead, which in my opinion, is a negative change. I liked the idea of another item to build in the case that I needed something early on for armor as a mage and didn't have the huge cash for a Zhonya's, but I just want the armor. The AP is nice, but I'm being forced to spend more money to get the armor I need. I COULD just get a Chain Vest regardless of this item, but now, it builds into nothing useful later (unless I simply just go for GA). This is in addition to the fact that I (in addition to many others so far) feel that the passive simply disappearing on upgrade is negative, strange, and feels like a loss.

Riot's design for the item also helps to encourage a Cloth Armor + 5 potion setup against AD mids. Personally, I think encouraging Cloth Armor + Health Potions similarly encourages poor gameplay. This helps turn the lane into a passive lane, similar to starting with a null magic mantle+pots or flask+pots. This turns it into a farm lane, and discourages offensive trades/fights.

This also goes against their philosophy for changing the top of the defensive mastery tree, which was the fact that easily obtained armor/MR discourages offensive lanes, and prevents skilled enemies from killing their opponent (when they should be beat out).

While it also provides a starting item choice option, it also would discourage the use of AD mids if there was too strong/too common of a counter to them, even if it just makes it less fun (a difficult to kill enemy that can't really fight you back due to no offensive items).

I think that starting with a Cloth Armor shouldn't be the "go-to" against them, but purchasing a Cloth Armor and being able to make good use of it upon returning to the lane is a good option. You shouldn't simply assume that you will need defense against them at the start of the game, which would be the same as assuming you would always need a null magic mantle at the start when seeing an enemy AP mid. Yet, even still, the item contradicts itself: if you build it cause you're taking too much physical damage, you have to pay MORE money for LESS armor than Chain Vest. The only way it becomes decent is if you stack it up fully, and that doesn't make sense (you rush an item that needs growth to effectively counter something you need armor against immediately?).

Anyways, I think the intent here was good, but I would prefer some tweaks before it went live. As cool of an idea as it sounded when you guys announced you would be adding a new early/mid game mage armor option, this is negative in addition to the benefits it provides... making it questionable. If this is intended to be a buff to mage survivability options, it becomes questionable due to the nature of which its being implemented (cost, Zhonya's change, etc).

My possible alternative would be something like...

Quote:
Plate of the Warmage
Builds from Chain Vest + Amplifying Tome (700+435 = 1135)

+40 Armor
+30 Ability Power
UNIQUE Passive: Killing a unit grants 0.66 Ability Power. This bonus stacks up to 30 times.

Cost: 315 (Total: 1450)


Benefits:
+Allows you to get the armor you need immediately, while also providing you an additional interesting optional upgrade upon going back to base for AP
+Passive encourages upgrading, provides interesting gameplay and decisions
+Still gets more armor upon building into Zhonya's, encouraging the upgrade
+Upgrade becomes more efficient than a Blasting Wand alternative (compare: cost of upgrade 750, vs wand cost 860) if you manage to get a good amount of stacks, encouraging skilled farming

Potential concerns:
-Slight cost increase wouldn't be a bad thing, possible alternative is 1500
-Passive could be something more interesting, seems to simply allow you to lower the cost of the item while giving it more "maximum" stats. I still feel (in addition to others) that upgrading into Zhonya's and simply losing the passive feels negative, strange, and like a loss.
-Could POTENTIALLY compete with Needlessly Large Rod in terms of efficiency, but purposely kept maximum AP down to minimize that, could reduce further or increase cost
-Removes ability to grab quick cloth armors upon going back early on in the game. A potential fix would be Cloth Armor + Cloth Armor building into Chain Vest.

Thank you for taking the time to read.

EDIT: This was intended to go in the PBE forum. My apologies if it doesn't fit here.


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Kooloo Limpah

Senior Member

01-20-2013

I love this item


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IntrospectionMan

Senior Member

01-20-2013

70 armor and 60 AP in one item that costs that little is way, way too much. The item is fine as is.


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FancyKiddo

Member

01-20-2013

I'd say if they just move some of the stats towards initial purpose instead of stacks (like they did with BT) so that it's:

Quote:

Plate of the Warmage
Builds from Cloth Armor + Cloth Armor + Amplifying Tome (300 + 300 + 435 = 1035)

+40 Armor
+30 Ability Power

UNIQUE Passive: Killing a unit grants 0.5 bonus Armor and Ability Power. This bonus stacks up to 16 times.

Cost: 125 (Total: 1160)

(slightly less AP, slightly more Armor)

Would make it fit the intended purpose a bit better.


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Crevox

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Quote:
IntrospectionMan:
70 armor and 60 AP in one item that costs that little is way, way too much. The item is fine as is.


If you're referring to my iteration, the armor does not scale. I feel that scaling armor diminishes the purpose of the item. If you need armor, you purchase this item to get that armor you need right NOW... it shouldn't be attached to a growth mechanic.

As for the AP, I forgot to change the scaling. It should be 0.6, resulting in ~20 AP (+50 total).


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Crevox

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Quote:
(slightly less AP, slightly more Armor)

Would make it fit the intended purpose a bit better.


I think it's enough armor personally, as going up past 40 leaves it a small upgrade when going to Zhonya's.

The AP calculation was incorrect after I made some tweaks to it. I think this is fine now (30 stack, 0.66 scaling). If it was 16 stacks it would be easily maxed and make it kind of a pointless mechanic.

The only remaining concern is that 0.66 looks "rough" and confusing on the eyes, so it would just need tiny number tweaks if that was a concern. ;p


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Dreampod

Senior Member

01-20-2013

In many ways being able to buy piecemeal cloth armor is better than a chain vest if you need armor mid because you can pick it up as an initial purchase or first back if you are having trouble with an AD mid instead of having to wait till around level 4 with no defenses. While slot efficiency is a issue the period in which you would generally be buying this piecemeal means it shouldn't be a problem, even with pots, wards, and boots buying the two cloth armors leaves you a slot open for a Doran's ring, or some other mana/AP item which seems reasonable for the points in the game where 700 gold is a big deal. Personally I always find the lack of a worthwhile item for AP that builds out of cloth armor frustrating and for me at least this is an ideal item as is.


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Crevox

Senior Member

01-20-2013

I think an item that builds out of cloth armor is a great idea, I'm just not sure this fits the bill.

Your slot inefficiency remains until you finish building it, which means once you buy one cloth armor, you commit to finishing it - soon. Not only does the passive of the item encourage it, but you need to clean up the inventory; and I feel the item is too expensive to stick you in that situation. It limits build customization to have to deal with this slot inefficiency, and I still feel the item doesn't entirely perform what it's intended do. It WILL grant you armor and AP, yeah, but its high gold cost in addition to the funky growth mechanic attached to it causes it to only begin to be useful near the middle/end of the laning phase. This is ESPECIALLY true if you didn't start with one of the ingredients. Your option is a cloth armor and pots or an amp tome and pots. Starting with an amp tome provides zero survivability besides the potions, and one could argue that a Doran's Ring would be more useful for you (health, similar AP, and mana regen, depending on whether or not you are a champion that favors mana regen). Starting with cloth armor gives you zero offense and tons of pots. This severely limits your ability to offense your opponent for kills, harassment, and control of the lane due to low damage output. You could argue that boots don't increase your damage output either, but boots do help your survivability and offense greatly (not as much since the patch, though).

Anyone facing an AD mid would consider it optimal to start with cloth+5, and that only encourages a passive lane. Having an answer to the fact that the enemy is beginning to deal too much damage (whether it be mid or someone else) is good, but having zero offense and just focusing on "surviving" the enemy is encouraging poor gameplay habits. It's not like you start with a null magic mantle and pots when you start mid, so why would you start like this? Do you think ADs deal more damage than AP? Do you just find this specific item with AP+armor really appealing? If an item similar to this existed for AP+MR, would everyone be starting with null magic mantle?

I do think that AP characters needed an answer to physical attacks other than Zhonya's... but I don't believe that it should be "the choice" when they see an AD go mid. It's a good option in the case you need armor for whatever reason (not just because it's an AD mid) but that's all we needed. However, this item makes it more difficult for reasons I already stated; it is more expensive than a Chain Vest and provides less armor. You are forced to build this funky thing instead of Chain Vest now, and ultimately you're going to have less armor until you get it stacked up - less than you did before this item's implementation. I thought the purpose was to give AP's a better answer for defense against physical attackers? Why do I suddenly have to spend more money?


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Crevox

Senior Member

01-21-2013

bump


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Zeninth

Senior Member

01-21-2013

I must agree. This item is too expensive and 2 cloth armors takes up too much inventory space and basically commits you to rushing it to completion or just having it sit there and take up slots.

But I think chain vest is a bit too expensive for early game as well.

Perhaps we could have it build out of 1 cloth armor and not 2. But move the 2nd cloth armor cost onto the final combine cost. This way the stats don't have to suffer, you can start building it early if you choose and not have to use an extra slot in inventory.

Shifting more gold cost to the final combine portion means it will still cost enough to warrant the final stats.

Thoughts?


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