Plate of the Warmage: Feedback

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Katalyste

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox View Post
The newest PBE build revealed a new AP item, Plate of the Warmage. This item now builds into Zhonya's Hourglass instead of Chain Vest.



This seems like a nifty item, but I actually do not like it. The problem doesn't lie in the passive or the stats.

It's just too expensive. Building this thing sets you up for a Zhonya's later, but compare this to the current scenario. If I'm facing an AD mid or an enemy AD gets really fed, I need to get some armor. My current options are Cloth Armor(s) or a Chain Vest. Currently, I build Chain Vest, because at a cost of 720g, it gives me +40 armor. This amount is satisfactory at a decent price, and will also build into Zhonya's later on.

Compare that to the new situation. If I want armor now, I will have to build Plate of the Warmage. This causes a whole slew of problems:

1. I have to spend 1160g to get LESS armor, in addition to a decent amount of AP. I could just get the Cloth Armor(s), but that takes up more inventory space for less armor even still (600g = 30 armor). This makes it a good idea to wait until you have enough for the entire thing, and that alone will set you back quite a bit of gold and hurt your item flow. It's simply too expensive to warrant purchasing in the situation of "dang, this AD mid is killing me, I need something to get back on equal footing." The only way you'd have this much cash is if you were killing people or farming REALLY well, and you wouldn't be rushing to build it if you were dominating him. If you are losing and you DO take the time and farm to save up for this, you're investing quite a lot into this instead of whatever your main item progression is (which should be toward Deathcap, usually, unless you're a mana hungry champion). It's useful if an enemy AD gets fed and you need an answer should he come your way, but even then you're forced to spend more money than the current option.

2. The passive on it suggests you building it early, leaning it toward being a better early/mid game item. In order to make the most of this item, you need to build it sooner rather than later. If I need armor immediately, this item will provide some armor, but not to the extent of Chain Vest. Eventually it will be a positive benefit, but even still, you're spending more money (440g more) for +5 armor and +40 AP. Yeah, the AP is really nice, but that's NOT why I would go out of my way to build this item: I need armor. When I need armor, I want a quick, efficient answer that will build into something later on. Chain Vest was a decent priced option that cut my damage output growth for a bit, but now we're being forced to get this instead (or the cloth armors, which hurts your inventory space). This means I have to spend more money to get the defense I need. The only real benefit I see is being able to grab a cloth armor after dying/going back as a soft cushion to their damage output without worrying about it being wasted (now it will actually build into something).

The big problem here is that it builds into Zhonya's Hourglass, replacing Chain Vest. Chain Vest fit the niche it needed to do, giving you a decent bulk of armor immediately, when you needed it. It was a modest price and did what it needed to do. Now, we're being forced to get this instead, which in my opinion, is a negative change. I liked the idea of another item to build in the case that I needed something early on for armor as a mage and didn't have the huge cash for a Zhonya's, but I just want the armor. The AP is nice, but I'm being forced to spend more money to get the armor I need. I COULD just get a Chain Vest regardless of this item, but now, it builds into nothing useful later (unless I simply just go for GA).

Riot's design for the item also helps to encourage a Cloth Armor + 5 potion setup against AD mids. Personally, I think encouraging Cloth Armor + Health Potions similarly encourages poor gameplay. This helps turn the lane into a passive lane, similar to starting with a null magic mantle+pots or flask+pots. This turns it into a farm lane, and discourages offensive trades/fights.

This also goes against their philosophy for changing the top of the defensive mastery tree, which was the fact that easily obtained armor/MR discourages offensive lanes, and prevents skilled enemies from killing their opponent (when they should be beat out).

While it also provides a starting item choice option, it also would discourage the use of AD mids if there was too strong/too common of a counter to them, even if it just makes it less fun (a difficult to kill enemy that can't really fight you back due to no offensive items).

I think that starting with a Cloth Armor shouldn't be the "go-to" against them, but purchasing a Cloth Armor and being able to make good use of it upon returning to the lane is a good option. You shouldn't simply assume that you will need defense against them at the start of the game, which would be the same as assuming you would always need a null magic mantle at the start when seeing an enemy AP mid. Yet, even still, the item contradicts itself: if you build it cause you're taking too much physical damage, you have to pay MORE money for LESS armor than Chain Vest. The only way it becomes decent is if you stack it up fully, and that doesn't make sense (you rush an item that needs growth to effectively counter something you need armor against immediately?).

Anyways, I think the intent here was good, but I would prefer some tweaks before it went live. As cool of an idea as it sounded when you guys announced you would be adding a new early/mid game mage armor option, this is negative in addition to the benefits it provides... making it questionable. If this is intended to be a buff to mage survivability options, it becomes questionable due to the nature of which its being implemented (cost, Zhonya's change, etc).

My possible alternative would be something like...



Benefits:
+Allows you to get the armor you need immediately, while also providing you an additional interesting optional upgrade upon going back to base for AP
+Passive encourages upgrading, provides interesting gameplay and decisions
+Still gets more armor upon building into Zhonya's, encouraging the upgrade
+Upgrade becomes more efficient than a Blasting Wand alternative (compare: cost of upgrade 750, vs wand cost 860) if you manage to get a good amount of stacks, encouraging skilled farming

Potential concerns:
-Slight cost increase wouldn't be a bad thing, possible alternative is 1500
-Could POTENTIALLY compete with Needlessly Large Rod in terms of efficiency, but purposely kept maximum AP down to minimize that, could reduce further or increase cost
-Removes ability to grab quick cloth armors upon going back early on in the game. A potential fix would be Cloth Armor + Cloth Armor building into Chain Vest.

Thank you for taking the time to read.

EDIT: This was intended to go in the PBE forum. My apologies if it doesn't fit here.
But your alternative leaves you with 5 less armor for more gold, defeating the purpose because the item is meant to help with AD mids...

BTW, who cares if it encourages a passive lane? You aren't going to fight an AD mid if he wins trades every single time. You have to do SOMETHING so you can stay in the lane and keep your farm up.


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Pookrat

Senior Member

01-20-2013

The game seriously needs this item. There is no variety with a certain combination of stats. AP and armor? Zhonyas. Magic resist and hp? Banshee or Bulwark. Attack speed and health? Trinity but holy **** its expensive.


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SonsofaBastages

Senior Member

01-20-2013

OK with the change actually, If you want to get chainmail you still have Frozen Heart and Iceborn (issue for kennan but that's about it)


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Crevox

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Senior Member

01-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Still Eternity View Post
Then WTF are we supposed to start? Dorans?

All this "ooooh passive lane farm fest zzzzzzz" BS is really starting to tick me off. Are we so simple minded that we need to be beating each other over the head every time we see each other, and the best early game champion wins?

This is utter BS, and it completely detracts from an otherwise decent post. I don't, and will never agree with this opinion.
Quote:
BTW, who cares if it encourages a passive lane? You aren't going to fight an AD mid if he wins trades every single time. You have to do SOMETHING so you can stay in the lane and keep your farm up.
Yes, you should be fighting each other. This is a team 5v5 game. There should be tension, there should be offense, there should be trades. You guys shouldn't be playing in mindless bliss just farming minions, as if you were playing a single player game. If you start with defense and pots, that's what it begins to boil down to, because there's nothing going on to make it interesting.

And yeah, you're probably right, not every champion is on equal footing with each other at every stage of the game, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't fight each other. I can't think of an AP mage that goes mid that has a hard time fighting off the start that would want to avoid fighting the enemy in order to "build up" for later. Every one of them has the potential to fight back and kill the opponent... even Veigar, who lives off of farm and relies on it to scale into end game.

Quote:
But your alternative leaves you with 5 less armor for more gold, defeating the purpose because the item is meant to help with AD mids...
By the time you buy this thing and fully stack it up, laning phase will either be over or close to over. The only way you would get it at a reasonable time is if you RUSH it, and that probably means starting with cloth armor... which causes the thing above. Chain Vest is a cheaper, more viable option, but like I said, I'm still all for the idea of grabbing a cloth armor when you recall or die simply because you feel like you need SOME armor, and giving that item some worth to it. I just feel the Plate of the Warmage is too expensive and requires too much growth to fulfill this "counter AD mid" role.


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Katalyste

Senior Member

01-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox View Post
Yes, you should be fighting each other. This is a team 5v5 game. There should be tension, there should be offense, there should be trades. You guys shouldn't be playing in mindless bliss just farming minions, as if you were playing a single player game. If you start with defense and pots, that's what it begins to boil down to, because there's nothing going on to make it interesting.

And yeah, you're probably right, not every champion is on equal footing with each other at every stage of the game, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't fight each other. I can't think of an AP mage that goes mid that has a hard time fighting off the start that would want to avoid fighting the enemy in order to "build up" for later. Every one of them has the potential to fight back and kill the opponent... even Veigar, who lives off of farm and relies on it to scale into end game.
Yeah, it is a team game, and playing passively over recklessly is one way to help your team, especially against snowball champs.


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Crevox

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Senior Member

01-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katalyste View Post
Yeah, it is a team game, and playing passively over recklessly is one way to help your team, especially with snowball champs.
There's a difference between playing safe and simply not fighting at all. Snowball champions exist, but that doesn't mean you simply say "oh god, if that guy kills me he will get really strong, I'm not gonna ever try fighting him." You should WANT to kill him, for both the money YOU will get and the denial of exp/farm he will receive for it. You shouldn't simply give up and resort to a passive farm lane. That also becomes more difficult because if you do, he will farm, and he WILL snowball, in addition to the high likelihood of him deciding to gank OTHER lanes because you're not pressuring him and not allowing him to get at you.


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Verxint

Senior Member

01-20-2013

If an ad is fed, get this and glacial shroud

and some hp

Glacial shroud should have a build with haunting guise or something


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Crevox

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Senior Member

01-20-2013

bump


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Crevox

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Senior Member

01-20-2013

Need interesting suggestions and opinions! What are your concerns with Riot's iteration of the item in its current state?


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AFK for House

Senior Member

01-20-2013

the boots 3 start from season 2 wasnt bought because it was the best offensive option it was bought because it was necessary to avoid ganks from junglers with red and boots

living through your lane and successfully farming will always be more important for early game itemization

starting cloth 5 against an ad allows you to trade more and actually get involved in fights instead of just standing way back and farming with spells which leads to a more interesting lane for everyone involved

id like it cheaper and/or the total cost on zonyas not increased and its ap reduced back to 100 by removing nlr from the recipe and replacing it with a blasting wand but i hate nlr

overall i like this item a lot and after its balanced and had its minor adjustments ill be very happy to get some armor and ap relatively cheap and start with what id have to start against high harass ad mids anyway which may or may not mean the cloth armor but at least i can pick up 1 or 2 of those if i have the spare gold and know im not throwing gold away