@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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Firellius

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
*Snip*
Unfortunately this approach completely cancels the validity of any and all burst related champions.

If you're going to stay with the HP stack dominated gameplay, please remove Ability Power as a stat. No need to give people a false choice.


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Fire Lord Iroh

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Irelia being able to sit in lane and farm forever isn't a new problem. In fact, it's pretty much been her problem forever.

I'm not actually sure why Irelia seems stronger, to be perfectly fair, because she used to do the same thing with resistances, for example.
Irelia seems stronger because since the Triforce nerfs it isn't effective to rush it (I'm not even sure that the item is worth buying anymore to be honest). She used to be able to be killed in team fights mid game in S2 if she was in a bad position since Triforce doesn't exactly provide survivability outside of a mediocre amount of health. However, since she can build Warmogs for 2650 gold which is 1550 gold less than Triforce she can become a lot tankier going into mid game more quickly. From this point, she can spend the remaining 1550 gold on more defensive stats or start to build something for offense.

Team fighting early on after purchasing Warmogs is effective since at this time skill damage is fairly relevant without scaling, but you have more health to tank with. This really applies to almost any bruiser, but is specifically noticeable on Irelia.


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dogbiter

Senior Member

01-23-2013

what about the big wraith having the power of a raid boss


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DEagleEye

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Some of it is probably some residual effects from S2 balance, I definitely agree. We'll be looking at that when we get the chance. I think we can convert some of the % shred on some characters to flat shreds, for example.

Somewhere, in my unspoken secret dreams, I'd like to rip Kayle's passive off and give her her old one back.
Old passive the EXACT same it was before you changed her?
You have NO idea how op that would be, it was OP back then, Now? you can still build malady, bcleaver, last whisper, and void staff, and be EVEN more op.
Not that kayle isnt op now
And, i'd love you if you did, i liked that passive soo much =D


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Merana

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
High Health / Low Resist has tons of counterplay - in fact, quite a good deal more than resistances in most cases.

The most basic form of counterplay versus health is life steal. Innately, the higher health and lower resistances someone has, the more effective my life steal statistic becomes. It's why having 4000 health doesn't really help you against Warwick - but having 100 MR does. Your health pool is becoming *their* health pool.

Furthermore, as I've explained earlier, resistances bolster your own natural defenses - whereas health doesn't. Shields / Self-heals / Regeneration effects become far out of line when resistances are strong - because resistance magnifies these - these effects typically have very little counterplay of their own without further stacked effects.

Spend three thousand gold in lane on armor - what does that get you? 4 Chain vests, or 160 armor.

If you had 1000 health, you would be multiplying your EHP by 160%. If you spend three thousand gold on health, you would be multiplying your EHP by 100%.

Armor wins here - especially if they have flat resistances. The more flat penetration your opponent's have, the more armor wins out in this case.

So - not quite seeing either of these points here.
First of all, I don't understand your point on lifesteal at all. You guys make vampiric scepter a bigger investment to get, nerf it's power to sustain in lane, then claim that it's the answer to health stacking? If a bruiser is in your face how fast you can kill them is going to matter a lot more than the 10% life steal you can get off them. After all, it's not like 10% life steal gives you 10% of THEIR life. Wow my 300 damage auto can life steal 30 damage instead of 15, I am creaming my pants.

ANd as for the EHP example, yeah I guess armor would be more efficient if I bought four chain vests. I will rush out to do that right away. Hopefully my opposing team is 5x Zed and I don't plan on building anything else

Edit: The 5x zed comment is to point out how you overlook the fact that warmogs EHP is basically worth twice as much as armor EHP in a teamfight because it effects both types of damage, and that even a super gold efficient build like 4 chain vest would only be more effective than warmog against a team like 5 Zeds


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Luvatar

Senior Member

01-23-2013

I think the bigger issue with AP mages is very simple: Armor is now the second choice to counter AD Casters, Health being the primary.

Before, AP casters would fight Magic Resistances and Armor, to which armor was a non-factor. Now AP casters fight Magic Resistance and health stacking.

Also, as someone already pointed out, -HP% damage in the game is rather lackluster. Liandry's helps sustained AP's, not bursts. DFG doesn't fit on most bust mages either, since its cast range is typically outside an AP Burst's comfort zone. Very few true glass cannon AP bursts can actually get DFG off safely.

On a completly different topic: Have you considered returning MDB's passive into the game? On-hit builds could really use a help after Malady/Wits End, and they could help counter all the health stacking. Plus, on the topic of MDB, Madreds currently has no more AD on it, so the bloodrazer could be re-purposed into a AS/Armor/Magic -HP% on-hit item, without the AD shenanigans that made it a confusing item in the first place.


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Niqhtmare x

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm actually a fan of health being the primary defensive stat - mostly because health has severely intrinsic features that resistances don't, that lets it be more easily controlled.

For example:

1. Health doesn't reduce the effectiveness of lifesteal type effects - or the secondary effects of an opponent's abilities.

2. Raw health isn't multiplicative with other healing or regeneration effects - allowing it to be effective without drastically multiplying in value with other effects (self heals, shields and the like.)

3. Health is a more obvious indicator of high durability than resistances - just due to how basic UIs work.

4. Because of high health per level gains, the relative effectiveness of health is far more temporary than resistances - This is just a natural fallout of our stat per level gains, not an intrinsic advantage of health.

For example, let's take the following case here:

You have a Bruiser with 1000 health, 300 armor fighting an AD carry, versus a Bruiser with 4000 Health and 100 armor.

1. % Armor Penetration is equally as effective in both cases in fighting the bruiser - because of how effective health works.
2. However, Life Steal - is far more effective in the second case - whereas it is completely destroyed in the first case.
3. The Bruiser's life steal / shield statistics are also neutral in the second case - whereas they are multiplied in the first case.

Thus, the AD carry or any damage dealer actually has multiple paths to deal with a high health target than they did - because the other defensive aspects of the bruisers *aren't* being multiplied or their own secondary defensive statistic (lifesteal) isn't being diminished as well.

The flip side of this is that Flat Armor Penetration, the primary statistic of assassins, can be weaker and still be as effective versus Bruisers because of their ability to negate a far larger portion of armor.

Naturally, this has the flipside of making certain resistance focused tanks weaker - but that's something I feel like we should solve on resistance based tanks. So please, if there's a particular resistance based tank that feels weak, let us know.

Let's take another example, in lane:

Let's say I'm fighting a primary physical damage dealer, whose probably itemized some sort of flat penetration. I have something like 800 health and 50 armor. How much gold do I need to spend to double my life-span?

1.
Well, I could buy 800 health and have another 1200 effective health! Success!
2. Or I build 150 armor and have another 1200 effective health!

However, let's take a look at how things change when the game continues - as the game continues, the relative contribution of that armor to my health levels doesn't decay mostly because our game awards much more health per level than armor per level. In fact, by the time I'm level 8 or so, I'll probably have 1200 base health - and thus that 800 health is only increasing my effective at a lower ratio.

However, that 150 armor advantage is "still there".

Note this isn't an intrinsic advantage of health versus armor - just a side effect of how we award stats per level - but it does mean that the relative advantage of health in this case is temporary - rather than one that persists through the game.
i have one problem with health stacking
it makes people too tanky, while doing no damage

what does this mean? this means dive comps are more effective than peel comps in season 3 because you are literally wasting time killing the tank
the team that wins is the team that jumps the enemy carries
there is low strategy in always diving and never peeling


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Kyrie Friegraf

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Sejuani, I'm not sure - but Nautilus is pretty easy to answer. Nautilus gets more health when he builds health on his shield. He doesn't get damage from his health ratio. In fact, building resistances is the best way to amplify his shield.
Ah, so I'm simply wrong on Nautilus. Thanks for that.


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Kyrie Friegraf

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Lord Housewife View Post
Team fighting early on after purchasing Warmogs is effective since at this time skill damage is fairly relevant without scaling, but you have more health to tank with. This really applies to almost any bruiser, but is specifically noticeable on Irelia.
Shouldn't she be weaker than when resistances were stronger?

I mean that logic doesn't make sense. Resistances make the health she gains back from her W worth more per point. Max health doesn't do that. Olaf stands to gain noticeably by building pure health. Irelia? Loving the damage mitigation.


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Dreampod

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
It is a waste on a burst caster, I agree - but it gives burst casters a way to itemize into more of a sustained damage caster, depending on what they are fighting.

Brand is an example of this, for example. While Brand is typically a burst mage, Liandry + Omnomnomnomicon can turn him into an effective sustained mage.

DFG attacks it by adding to more burst - while Liandry tries to attack it by offering an different playstyle out. We'll see how it goes.
The problem is that ultimately you are still trying to kill them and % current is relatively useless for that. The key problem with % current health on a dot is that you need to spend one more spell to actually finish them off (much of which will be wasted damage) and means that you can only force people out of the fight or expose them for others to kill. While those are both very handy things it really hurts your gold income to shift 150 gold off yourself each kill you set up an ally or lose your team 480 gold by forcing them out without dying.

If Liandry's had its numbers halved and switched to % max health it would be a worthwhile item to get. That would give it a predictable and reliable effect that could actually kill someone without wasting extra casts.