@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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USnip

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01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Imogen Poots View Post
You want to talk evidence of deeply rooted wrong. We are now seeing pro teams skipping Bulwark in LAN tournaments despite the super high efficiency of aura sharing. That's how weak armor/resistance is right now. That alone ought to set off some mental alarms that in your anti-armor/resist zealotry you have pushed their relative balance off the deep end.
I think of bulwark as pretty much an item for pushing towers... it's not THAT crazy on stats just for having around. mostly it helps your team avoid running out of gas sitting outside their tower because it regens them, and it makes it much harder for your opponents to clear minions since it applies to them.


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dogbiter

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
From what I saw of the last tournament data, there were roughly 43 warmog's built in 19 games - which means that one out of roughly three or 4 characters were getting it per game. Which seems to sync up with what I expected, since the fighter and the tank should like it - so at the very least, I expect 4 people to have Warmog's.

I mean, there's probably a lack of diversity there - but the numbers don't seem to be too far out of line - it just seems like we got the health / resistance ratio wrong, which we're addressing next patch.
hey xyph thoughts on making yi an hybrid character or giving his Q a small AD ratio??? (either additive or non stackable with the AP one)


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Vanra

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Like, Darius, who deals 3 types of damage, phys/magic/true also has 25% armor shred because he didn't do enough damage late game. Like what? That to me was the warning sign of 'hey, there's probably something deeper rooted that's wrong.'
So now that you've fixed it you'll be taking his free 25% armor pen off?


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Merana

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01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by brb afk ftw View Post
the answer to health stacking is more damage...
A bruiser with a warmogs will beat an AD or AP with a damage item every time unless one side has no summoners or is severely outleveled.

It's not health stacking late game that matters, it's how warmogs lets you dominate early/mid with a massive and cheap health infusion when noone will have any counters to it besides also having warmogs


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dogbiter

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Merana View Post
A bruiser with a warmogs will beat an AD or AP with a damage item every time unless one side has no summoners or is severely outnumbered.

It's not health stacking late game that matters, it's how warmogs lets you dominate early/mid with a massive and cheap health infusion when noone will have any counters to it besides also having warmogs
its because melee being stronger 1v1 than ranged is something working as intended. atleast the bruiser/fighter ones


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
10 of 27 Riot Posts

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Two major points:
1. Resistances have built in counter play available to everyone, in the form of Armor/Magic Pen. Health has extremely poor counter play, with DFG being nerfed at the end of last season and Liandry's being a joke. Why stack resists that the enemy can negate when you can build health and be tanky for sure? Especially when there are dozens of champions that can reduce the effectiveness of resists but a tiny handful that punish health stacking?
High Health / Low Resist has tons of counterplay - in fact, quite a good deal more than resistances in most cases.

The most basic form of counterplay versus health is life steal. Innately, the higher health and lower resistances someone has, the more effective my life steal statistic becomes. It's why having 4000 health doesn't really help you against Warwick - but having 100 MR does. Your health pool is becoming *their* health pool.

Furthermore, as I've explained earlier, resistances bolster your own natural defenses - whereas health doesn't. Shields / Self-heals / Regeneration effects become far out of line when resistances are strong - because resistance magnifies these - these effects typically have very little counterplay of their own without further stacked effects.

Quote:
2. Resistances and health are not even in the same league efficiency wise thanks to things like warmogs. 1000 HP within your first 3000 gold is infinitely superior to building resist items for your EH because A) You have a small HP pool for resistances to work with and B) Your opponent will have a certain amount of penetration from their base kit/runes/masteries/core items no matter what and chances are a lot of your initial resistances will be negated before you can even go above 0.
Spend three thousand gold in lane on armor - what does that get you? 4 Chain vests, or 160 armor.

If you had 1000 health, you would be multiplying your EHP by 160%. If you spend three thousand gold on health, you would be multiplying your EHP by 100%.

Armor wins here - especially if they have flat resistances. The more flat penetration your opponent's have, the more armor wins out in this case.

Not quite seeing it here - they are actually pretty similar in terms of efficiency early on.


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IS13940001471ffbdf28d0e

Senior Member

01-23-2013

@Xyph Do you like the current state of magic penetration marks? Hybrid penetration mark give 2.0 less than magic penetration solo. I think it is a bit weak, what do you think?


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Crunchdoggie

Senior Member

01-23-2013

What do you think of the versatility of giant's belt? It builds into warmogs, mallet, randuins, sunfire, rylai's, there really is no reason not to get it. You can't go wrong because it's a cheap way to make yourself immovable in lane until you farm up whatever you want while also having no risk associated with it. You can't build it "wrong" because it can evolve to fill any role.


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Merana

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01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by dogbiter View Post
its because melee being stronger 1v1 than ranged is something working as intended. atleast the bruiser/fighter ones
A bruiser with a warmogs will also beat a bruiser building damage in nearly every situtation as well. At least until both sides have more items.

1000 health takes a long time for +60 to 80 AD to eat through. Surviving to get one more cycle of skills off does way more damage early/mid than an extra damage item will give you thank to base damages, unless you are severely underlevelled in comparison.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
11 of 27 Riot Posts

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What do you think of the versatility of giant's belt? It builds into warmogs, mallet, randuins, sunfire, rylai's, there really is no reason not to get it. You can't go wrong because it's a cheap way to make yourself immovable in lane until you farm up whatever you want while also having no risk associated with it. You can't build it "wrong" because it can evolve to fill any role.
The strength of the various health components are actually on our radar - I agree with you that it's probably too safe of an item when unfinished right now. It's something we're going to address next patch and then take another look at afterwards to see if it needs further work.

So don't get me wrong, I'm not saying health tuning is perfect right now or that we aren't making gold : stat efficiency so let us know of stuff like this!