@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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Quenton

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Well, my thought on the prevailance of Health is that (seems to, anyway) hurts mages more than anyone, especially burst mages. A lot of the time you can't keep up with the rate at which everyone is buying health, and once you blow your combo to not much effect, you're a sitting duck (the inherent problem with burst mages, it's true, but at least with resistances you could buy some magic pen. Health penetration not so much)

Xypherous responded to me. I can die happy.


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ScorchXBanister

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Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quenton View Post
the inherent problem with burst mages, it's true, but at least with resistances you could buy some magic pen. Health penetration not so much
You could always forsake the magic pen and buy more damage. They can't mitigate it, so they just take more. Fortunately, you deal a lot yourself.


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Imogen Poots

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm actually a fan of health being the primary defensive stat - mostly because health has severely intrinsic features that resistances don't, that lets it be more easily controlled.

For example:

1. Health doesn't reduce the effectiveness of lifesteal type effects - or the secondary effects of an opponent's abilities.

2. Raw health isn't multiplicative with other healing or regeneration effects - allowing it to be effective without drastically multiplying in value with other effects (self heals, shields and the like.)

3. Health is a more obvious indicator of high durability than resistances - just due to how basic UIs work.

4. Because of high health per level gains, the relative effectiveness of health is far more temporary than resistances - This is just a natural fallout of our stat per level gains, not an intrinsic advantage of health.

For example, let's take the following case here:

You have a Bruiser with 1000 health, 300 armor fighting an AD carry, versus a Bruiser with 4000 Health and 100 armor.

1. % Armor Penetration is equally as effective in both cases in fighting the bruiser - because of how effective health works.
2. However, Life Steal - is far more effective in the second case - whereas it is completely destroyed in the first case.
3. The Bruiser's life steal / shield statistics are also neutral in the second case - whereas they are multiplied in the first case.

Thus, the AD carry or any damage dealer actually has multiple paths to deal with a high health target than they did - because the other defensive aspects of the bruisers *aren't* being multiplied or their own secondary defensive statistic (lifesteal) isn't being diminished as well.

The flip side of this is that Flat Armor Penetration, the primary statistic of assassins, can be weaker and still be as effective versus Bruisers because of their ability to negate a far larger portion of armor.

Naturally, this has the flipside of making certain resistance focused tanks weaker - but that's something I feel like we should solve on resistance based tanks. So please, if there's a particular resistance based tank that feels weak, let us know.

Let's take another example, in lane:

Let's say I'm fighting a primary physical damage dealer, whose probably itemized some sort of flat penetration. I have something like 800 health and 50 armor. How much gold do I need to spend to double my life-span?

1.
Well, I could buy 800 health and have another 1200 effective health! Success!
2. Or I build 150 armor and have another 1200 effective health!

However, let's take a look at how things change when the game continues - as the game continues, the relative contribution of that armor to my health levels doesn't decay mostly because our game awards much more health per level than armor per level. In fact, by the time I'm level 8 or so, I'll probably have 1200 base health - and thus that 800 health is only increasing my effective at a lower ratio.

However, that 150 armor advantage is "still there".

Note this isn't an intrinsic advantage of health versus armor - just a side effect of how we award stats per level - but it does mean that the relative advantage of health in this case is temporary - rather than one that persists through the game.
Except that health has this one huge advantage of also working against magic damage.

Your numbers are so far off right now because even if all five opponents are primarily physical, it's still arguable whether it's a good idea to buy armor over health as it is somewhat balanced with all of the above in mind except that health also helps against magic damage. If you are facing mixed damage, it's just not even close.

That's why you have failed.


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Henry Plainview

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vahlen View Post
So what are your plans for champions like Rammus? His passive is completely based around buying armor, which you nerfed 2-fold through cost and effectiveness........I remember you quoting something like "burning 1 champion to save a hundred" in a Heimer thread, it just seem like this is your go-to philosophy way too much and in the ends turns out to be maybe a dozen or so champions getting burned.
Rammus gets 100 armor for free....


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
6 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
Then couldn't the likely culprit be the residual effects of S2 balance work transitioning into S3 ?

Just throwing out some food for thought, that all the items may indeed be balanced but certain champion kits make them stronger than intended (namely those with high arm pen/shred as well as those who scale off health to a lesser degree)
Some of it is probably some residual effects from S2 balance, I definitely agree. We'll be looking at that when we get the chance. I think we can convert some of the % shred on some characters to flat shreds, for example.

Somewhere, in my unspoken secret dreams, I'd like to rip Kayle's passive off and give her her old one back.

Quote:
Well, my thought on the prevailance of Health is that (seems to, anyway) hurts mages more than anyone, especially burst mages. A lot of the time you can't keep up with the rate at which everyone is buying health, and once you blow your combo to not much effect, you're a sitting duck (the inherent problem with burst mages, it's true, but at least with resistances you could buy some magic pen. Health penetration not so much)
Yes, burst mages do get hit when health becomes the dominant statistic - mostly because, it turns out that health is a pretty good substitute for magic resistance when the going gets rough.

There's various implications of that - but that's why you see things like Liandry or DFG existing. We're doing an AP pass next patch to help mages out - and after that we can start looking at specific characters if they still feel weak.


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Vahlen

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Plainview View Post
Rammus gets 100 armor for free....
Ya? Which was just stated to be effectively less useful than it was in previous seasons when Rammus had already fallen off due to heavy nerfs..........connect the dots before making a sarcastic comment.


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Anonymous Josh

Senior Member

01-23-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yes, burst mages do get hit when health becomes the dominant statistic - mostly because, it turns out that health is a pretty good substitute for magic resistance when the going gets rough.

There's various implications of that - but that's why you see things like Liandry or DFG existing. We're doing an AP pass next patch to help mages out - and after that we can start looking at specific characters if they still feel weak.
Good. I'd like to play a mage, that isn't a Ryze type (tanky sustained damage) or Ori (mostly for utility), and not feel like a detriment to my team.


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Hellioning

Senior Member

01-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
There's various implications of that - but that's why you see things like Liandry or DFG existing. We're doing an AP pass next patch to help mages out - and after that we can start looking at specific characters if they still feel weak.
The problem is that Liandry's seems like a waste on a burst caster; if you're supposed to kill an enemy in a single combo, why spend so much money on a passive that's almost never going to see use? If an enemy survives your combo, they're probably so low that liandry's doesn't do anything anyway. An upgrade to Haunting Guise is nice, but it seems to exist for more sustained damage champions; you're spending 900g for 100 health, 15 ap, and the passive.

I do like the DFG changes, though.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

01-23-2013
7 of 27 Riot Posts

Quote:
So what are your plans for champions like Rammus? His passive is completely based around buying armor, which you nerfed 2-fold through cost and effectiveness........I remember you quoting something like "burning 1 champion to save a hundred" in a Heimer thread, it just seem like this is your go-to philosophy way too much and in the ends turns out to be maybe a dozen or so champions getting burned.
Rammus' problems I think stem from Jungle changes more than anything else. It's pretty hard to tell with him specifically. The increased health itemization should have helped him be generally tankier.

Rammus isn't really a resistance based character. Skarner, while he's not a tank, is a far better example of a resistance based character - because almost everything he is depends on that shield. Udyr is similar.

Typically, strong repeatable shield champions or champions with shields at their core are resistance based characters, because their health pool is actually several times larger than it seems.

Quote:
The problem is that Liandry's seems like a waste on a burst caster; if you're supposed to kill an enemy in a single combo, why spend so much money on a passive that's almost never going to see use? If an enemy survives your combo, they're probably so low that liandry's doesn't do anything anyway.
It is a waste on a burst caster, I agree - but it gives burst casters a way to itemize into more of a sustained damage caster, depending on what they are fighting.

Brand is an example of this, for example. While Brand is typically a burst mage, Liandry + Omnomnomnomicon can turn him into an effective sustained mage.

DFG attacks it by adding to more burst - while Liandry tries to attack it by offering an different playstyle out. We'll see how it goes.


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brb afk ftw

Junior Member

01-23-2013

Personally I really like the health vs resistances changes of S3.
I think there is some room for improvement and I think there is probably a place for another mid tier health/mr item, but overall I do think it lends a more intrinsic appearance of bulk than a high armor opponent does. I remember in S2 being suddenly surprised that I did no damage before I noticed the huge armor stack.

Warmogs makes sense to me as a core defensive item and health stacking doesn't seem to be toxic to the game environment, just strange based on past assumptions.

I do agree a few champions could probably use minor buffs and others need small nerfs to bring them to similar levels of balance from season 2. Yea... Olaf is so strong. Putting the armor pen just on the ult activation looks like a good start though.

(from a few posts above) Naut is just a victim of a meta shift. Sejuani is getting a rework and personally I think she is actually a bit stronger in S3 than she was in S2 as is.
Dr. Mundo is actually pretty strong, the issue (at least at professional levels) is that he is a very selfish jungler and that is often times a risky choice to make in a team comp.