@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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Great Owl

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Xypherous, your comparisons of health to resists in regards to early power don't seem to take into account that health protects vs all damage, resists are specific. I don't think its fair to compare 3000 golds worth of health vs armor when an AP mid can ignore all of that armor you stacked early, but not health.


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Marth Wagner

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The strength of the various health components are actually on our radar - I agree with you that it's probably too safe of an item when unfinished right now. It's something we're going to address next patch and then take another look at afterwards to see if it needs further work.

So don't get me wrong, I'm not saying health tuning is perfect right now or that we aren't making gold : stat efficiency so let us know of stuff like this!
I think the solution to that would be to take the health of giants belt, a large chunk, and throw it into the completed items. That way giants belt is just ok to buy early, but by upgrading it you get the extra health you deserved. Always felt weird having giants belt and then buying sunfire or rylais and the health increase was minimal because giants belt contains the larger portion of health.


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MrJoestar

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Junior Member

01-24-2013

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Originally Posted by Raptoreyes View Post
Complete hyperbole, the build just pushes down their damage. They survive a bit better vs 3 players, perhaps long enough to blow thier cc and maybe get a spell or an auto attack or two off. Immortals they are not.. not even in lane, just simply the last to get focused down. Warmogs is fine but many other items need more hp on them to right the balance that was lost when resists were made 20% more expensive and penitration was made to scale to endgame. If anything tanks and brusers are less tanky then they have ever been before in this game.
Sorry dude, learn to play the game, see some stream or tournaments, then talk.


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WarlordAlpha

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Recruiter

01-24-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I disagree with that - but I mean, sometimes late at night, I think I've actually gutted DFG. It used to be a 50% current health nuke. Now it's merely 15% max health.

I'm not actually sure whether the new DFG in any way, shape or form resembles the power / scope that the old DFG had.
I'd take old DFG over the new one any day of the week, especially now that people are stacking more health than resistances. The new one is just pitifully weak compared to the old one. Of course, that could just mean that the old one was super OP, but regardless of the relative power level I feel like the old DFG would be far more useful to most casters than the new one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yeah - it's something that has been running through my head for a while but I'm not sure. Depending on my AD scaling versus base damage ratios - LW/VS may be the only damage add that I have in a lot of cases.
I have to wonder if the right thing to do here would be to increase the amount of AD/AP that LW/VS give and increase the cost as needed. For example, make Void Staff build out of two Blasting Wands instead of a Blasting Wand and an Amp Tome, but increase the total AP to like 100 total AP (from 70) and increase the total cost to like 2800 or so (from 2295) accordingly.

You know, just so that it's harder for the low-base-damage champions to rush it early (when their low base damages mean the most) AND so that the high-ratio champions get more out of it late game when it really matters.


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Pintash

Senior Member

01-24-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The lane case that you've stated is a problem - and I completely agree with you on that. That's something that Scarizard has pointed out to me recently that I'll need to start digging into, that it might still be too good as a health regeneration item, even if we took off 40 HP/5 from the base.
Just a thought but would it not make sense for Warmog's regen to scale with bonus resistances? That way a rush in lane would not create the immovable laners we're currently seeing and would also reward front line champs for building resistances as the game goes on. It would also make Warmogs a slightly less attractive option to Champions that are not going to stack resistances as the game goes on.
I feel like this would reduce it's early/mid game effectiveness while making it very cost effective late game to the champs that it's meant for.


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ryani

Senior Member

01-24-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I think the problem here with strategic variety is that it's pretty hard to get 5 people who've never met before to decide on a strategy without making those strategies kind of self-contained. I could be off though - I will readily admit that grand strategy is actually not something I'm particularly good at - or something that I've particularly researched. I should actually try to delve into this more when I have time.
This is fascinating to me, actually, as I think I realized why I'm so much worse at the game now.

I've been playing since beta, and I was always ahead of the metagame. I'd be the one directing the team to objectives, suggesting level 1 dragon (nobody did that!), pushing particular objectives, trying new team compositions, etc.

But the game is all about mechanics and execution now, and to be honest, my mechanics and execution suck. I'm fine at last hitting but I misclick in skirmishes and teamfights all the time -- cast the wrong spell, or adrenaline gets to my mouse hand and I can't position where I want.

I wish there were more ways to win the game by being creative, but everyone knows the value of objectives and wards now, and weird team comps are too easily punished by the 'standard meta', especially since they have to fight over the boundary of non-familiarity.

Personally, I think you guys have gone the wrong direction with item design. The items now are so much more boring than they used to be--and the addition of so many active-use items further rewards being good at mechanical skill and not creative builds.

You need to have champs that are overpowered but don't fit the metagame, to encourage people to build teams around them. You need to have items that nobody buys despite their amazing efficiency, just so they can be broken by a few champions. Of course it's bad if those become FotM and everyone uses that champion with that build.

And you need to put back some of the more weird non-role-matching stats on the off items. As examples, Stark's had an AoE armor pen aura, and Aegis gave right click damage. Stinger cost the same as recurve bow with strictly better stats but not many build paths. Push those directions, not the 'well, bruisers want items like X, and we want them to have more options to build, so make more items like X'. You need some of that, too, of course.

In M:tG terms, almost all of LoL's item store could be commons or uncommons. There's no 'rares' to build around, with their wacky effects that might synergize differently than everything else. The closest thing seems to be Sword of the Divine.


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copperpoint

Senior Member

01-25-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
SHYVANA

Agreed. AS nerfs hit her pretty hard and the jungle changes were a double whammy onto her.
Glad to hear that from a red. We have a nice discussion in this thread about the dragonlady, there are lots of thoughts and ideas for her already.
LINK:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3018892


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Noobgrenade

Senior Member

01-25-2013

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Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Somewhere, in my unspoken secret dreams, I'd like to rip Kayle's passive off and give her her old one back.
Do this.
Now.


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Riftic

Senior Member

01-25-2013

Xypherous, are there any changes to AP assassins you guys are considering or that he haven't seen on the PBE yet?

If you could change anything about some of the AP bursters such as Ahri, Brand, or LeBlanc, what would it be?


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Xemozu

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Senior Member

01-25-2013

Hm Xypherous, this aims at something very specific, so you might not reply but it's worth a try:
Why design skills like Olaf's W, that bring a lot of power, but don't really feel like so? I mean, he has 1% total hp scaling, which seems meaningless, and a LOT of base AD / lifesteal / spellvamp.

And truth be told, building 3000 extra hp for just 30 mere damage doesn't really SEEMS, or FEEL like an intelligent choice. But it is, you're getting free damage from becoming tankier. So not only your enemy dies slighty faster, but you also become harder to kill for everyone else.

I think my main problem is that I'm not feeling the benefit and satisfaction I should get of building Olaf around his W (Getting a lot of HP that is) Even though there's clearly a lot of power over time there.

I feel skills like those (Very "low" scaling / high bases) aren't as enjoyable as skills with high scaling and low bases. Obviously there should be a mid point, you don't want a tank to scale hard in damage, and you don't want an AD carry to have meaningless scaling. However, for champions like Olaf there could and SHOULD be a mid point, where your skills allow you to have multiple itemization choices, so that you can side towards a melee carry or tanky guy route.

If I were to modify Olaf's W I would gut bases, Increase scaling considerably and change to bonus HP so that it feels really meaningful, and in turn change the duration of the steroid to last for 3~ hits. So that you feel that hitting "w" right when you were low in that fight MADE the difference. Because right now, I just spam W as soon as I get close to someone, and in turn it stops feeling like I'm making an important decision in the moment.