@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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SmugUniverse

Senior Member

01-24-2013

@Xyph Are on-hit builds going to remain gutted forever in favor of on-hit items being viable?
In S2 you could build purely on-hit items with a few defense items and you'd be good to go, but in S3 most of the on-hit items are really good by themselves but have no synergy between eachother and no tanky stats, also removed core items (bloodrazor, ionic spark) to make new items that work better in different builds but not in an on-hit build.


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Bleargh

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I think the problem here with strategic variety is that it's pretty hard to get 5 people who've never met before to decide on a strategy without making those strategies kind of self-contained. I could be off though - I will readily admit that grand strategy is actually not something I'm particularly good at - or something that I've particularly researched. I should actually try to delve into this more when I have time.
The problem with strategic variety is that Riot discourages it.

Split pushing champions are usually nerfed if their split push becomes an effective strategy. Heimer is nerfed repeatedly even though he was not been viable in years, simply because he is good at taking down outer towers while bad at basically everything else. Promote was removed and put on a mid to late game item where it is mostly useless. Nunu is now being nerfed.

Riot seems very afraid to make champions and strategies that are good at taking down towers. I remember when Xerath was coming out and was billed as a siege champion thinking that he would be good at taking down structures from range - how naive I was!


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LightEcho

Senior Member

01-24-2013

In theory health being the core defensive stat makes life steal a better option but that doesn't seem to be the trend(the BT being an exception because its really strong right now). Mostly this is because the lifesteal values are too low, which they need to be in order to prevent abuse cases in lane. Life steal also has the issues of being snowball dependent, and going out of control when people using it get far enough ahead. While the lifesteal gain from tanky targets has gone up, the effective gain has gone down since resistances were nerfed. Now in theory there should be some sort of triad of sorts where burst would beat lifesteal, lifeteal would beat beefy fighters or tanks, and fighters/tanks would endure burst to prevail against casters. I think lifesteal,(spell vamp is another question since each beast is different but lifesteal gains are largely item defined), needs a sort of endgame deathcap sort of option that would say for example grant 50% increased lifesteal(as in 150% of what you had) for 5 seconds(maybe even some bonus resists). Which might give lifesteal a home in the late game without killing the lane phase.


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AppleBloom4Life

Member

01-24-2013

So excessive health stacking isn't a problem because it allows others to lifesteal more effectively than vs a health/armor combo? This would be a valid point if every bruiser under the sun didn't have hard CC and a gap closer


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Auryiel

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Member

01-24-2013

Xyph, sorry, for saying it that way, but : Just because you DREAM about fixing champions doesn't mean you will.

While health becomes the primary defensive stat and this exposes humongous problems about so many AP champions, you still haven't done anything about them and, considering Riot's track record, I am inclined to be believe you WON'T do anything about it.You're always nerfing strong champions, but you almost never buff WEAK champions.

How often do you see Annie, Veigar or Brand? How often do they do well? I think we all agree they are on the weaker side of the spectrum and they have been for quite a while. Yet nothing's been done about it. Viktor's had the problem that his augments all feel sh*tty and only one of the feels even remotely useful, to the point where pretty much everyone agrees that in 95% of cases, you'll pick Death over the other 2. And yet last time I heard anything about this was when the S3 item rework came out on the PBE and some old files were dug out about recycled ideas for Viktor's augments.


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Marth Wagner

Senior Member

01-24-2013

It's dumb if its a character with high base stats. A top lane could rush warmogs and you really couldn't do anything to counter it unless you Rasheed warmogs as well. And in a case like facing Olaf, you won't win anyway.

You would imagine life steal works... But it doesn't for a lot of characters. How do you feel about a jayce with 3000hp, 200 armour and mr, and as much ad as an ad carry... As well as life steal and guardian angel (probably the most broken item in the game, almost every character must have one) 1v4ing, literally, and killing 3 or so characters before he dies? IMO jayce has always been unbalanced, maybe items make it worse, idk. I have a replay of that somewhere if you want me to find it. But that shouldn't be able to happen unless you're 50 minute nasus (if you manage to get that far with nasus)

Ap mid has become obsolete, the team that has one, loses. Mid is always bruisers or ad casters/assassins. Maaaayyyybbbbeeeee ryze stands a chance, but none else.


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Drekor

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Thank you for being awesome Xypherous.

To touch on my issues with this.

Health stacking: You mentioned that warmogs is inefficient to get and that health is really only truly effective when you start multiplying it with resistance. There are 2 major issues with this though. Warmogs grants regen based on max health and % penetration eviscerates the value of resistance purchases. Buying health is good because it increases your sustain with warmogs which means it's no longer just effective when you go back. And as you point out you can pierce through 54.5% of someones armor which means all current purchases and any future purchases are now effectively going to cost more than double the gold to get the same value. I have no way of countering % penetration other than "CC from 100-0" or what everyone is doing now... stacking health.

Things like Randuins are fantastic but because of their debuff and health, the armor is nice but nobody is buying it specifically for that. If you removed the armor completely people would still buy it. People buy sunfire because it has health and a damage aura(which adds up over a fight). They both also play well with warmogs regen.

On APs: The main issue is early game defenses and transitioning from mid-game base damage awesomeness to mid/late-game item based damage awesomeness. The warmage item is nice but it needs to transition well into late game. An item solely for early-mid is exactly what the old haunting guise was and it was the reason it was so unpopular. Haunting guise has always been an amazing item for early-mid but it didn't build into anything and now it builds into an incredibly expensive and underwhelming item outside of specific niches. Also having things build out of cheaper items is pretty important and transitional items like warmage and guise are PERFECT for this sort of thing.

I'd also like to raise the issue of APs utility and why I think yourself and other designers are overestimating. Many of the AP's "utility" is either and escape or CC. They are not exclusive in these, in fact nearly everyone has them now. You see the only mages now that are really "competitive" seem to be the ones that have strictly unique mechanics. Someone like Ryze for example his passive allows him to basically machine gun spells at the same time build tanky thanks to mana ratios. This allows him to face tank bruisers while being one of the highest damage characters in the game. No other AP has this style of play. Eve has her stealth and her massive burst from stealth(well... had). TF has his global teleport. Anivia has her incredibly area control. You look at a very "standard" mage like say Malzahar and he's never played because he only brings damage and CC. If I want damage and CC why don't I just play AP cho? Do tons of damage, CC more, be super tanky


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Askhexplosive

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Speaking of resistance tanks, I feel like Galio could use some buffs now that MR overall was nerfed. He's not as tanky as he used to be, and due to the increased movespeed and resistance to CC skills that the new masteries brought, his ult just isn't as good as it used to be. I frequently see people resisting the taunt to such an extent that my ultimate never goes off all the way. Someone always breaks out of it early and interrupts the channel.


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Manticoran

Junior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Spend three thousand gold in lane on armor - what does that get you? 4 Chain vests, or 160 armor.
Please note the armor item that gives you 160 armor. Warmog's is an extremely effective early game and late game solution because of the massive EH on a SINGLE item slot, combined with the fact that as the game progresses armor becomes worth less and less as a stat(More people on enemy team with LW/BC, or just people who you're fighting who have magic or true damage since you're not fighting just one person anymore). It seems to me to be the combination of strong early play, even if it's a little bit weaker than going pure armor or pure MR, with the late game viability of having a much higher EH level from that one item and a high sustain option for the early/mid/siege/poke game, which ends up being most of it.

The champions that can take advantage of enemies stacking health are pretty common. Obviously Warwick does, but there's a number of other people who do or are perfectly happy picking up things like BotRK and a few who are happy with Liandry's. Just my 2c


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Askhexplosive

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleargh View Post
The problem with strategic variety is that Riot discourages it.

Split pushing champions are usually nerfed if their split push becomes an effective strategy. Heimer is nerfed repeatedly even though he was not been viable in years, simply because he is good at taking down outer towers while bad at basically everything else. Promote was removed and put on a mid to late game item where it is mostly useless. Nunu is now being nerfed.

Riot seems very afraid to make champions and strategies that are good at taking down towers. I remember when Xerath was coming out and was billed as a siege champion thinking that he would be good at taking down structures from range - how naive I was!
Psst, Ziggs got a recent buff to his passive, making it deal 50% more damage to towers. So that's at least something.