@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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Drone101

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Please stop nerfing items heavily during pre-season, really messed up my preparation for season 2. I can't play as intensely as many so a big change just before the season starts in earnest murders my chance of getting a good start for the season.

Sorry I know its selfish - but it's frustrating when big changes happen just before the season begins. Can't imagine how the pro's must feel when you completely murder their comps/strats at the drop of a hat.


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Nilous7

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Xypherous, can you please explain your logic for a bit. You're saying AP casters in mid lose out to AD casters because they don't have any armor to counter the damage an AD caster does. But you have spent a large portion of this thread saying HEALTH > ARMOR. Can you explain why you feel giving a single niche (and quickly mandatory) AP/Armor item will single handedly undo the sheer power that AD's have over AP? Even if AP's build armor, it'll just be shredded by a BC, right? But if an AD caster starts off with a little magic resist, the AP has to put all their gold towards either Void Staff to undo that MR, or an Abyssal Scepter (which you apparently love as a tank item). Abyssal Scepter has a waste of stats against the AD caster, because of the magic resistance on it. Void staff doesn't build out of anything early on, so that brutalizer the AD caster has been wearing gave them an earlier lead.
Beyond this, could you also explain when you feel building armor or magic resist is better than just pure health? If I'm top lane against a bruiser, my armor is forfeit to a brutalizer/black cleaver. If I'm a support, my armor is forfeit to the carry's last whisper. If i'm a tank late game, I had better have 300+ armor against an all physical damage team, with 4000+ health, since my armor's gonna be 200 when they're actually attacking. That's a huge waste of stats for me, but if I don't build high armor, then I'm getting hit for true damage essentially (back to the argument you have saying why AP's lose mid against AD's).


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Zerothma

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01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
Trundle has one of the lowest armor values in the game. It starts off normal for a bruiser then scales as if he's heimerdinger. This has annoyed me for years.
I made a thread quite a few months back where I asked why his armor scaling was so bad. I got downvoted a bunch and nobody bumped it at all because nobody cares about Trundle.

Actually, his level 1 armor is one of the best in the game. His level 18 is one of the worst.


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thumbnail9

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yes, if you want to get specific, this is true. However, if you want to get specific in the context of this discussion then the correct comparison is to compare health itemization, or buying health items compared to shields / drains / regeneration.

The core here is that buying health does have an added conditional - it only takes effect when you're going back to base for the most part - you cannot add health in the field by buying health. Shields / Drains / Regeneration effects are essentially always up - the act of buying health, however, only happens once and typically cannot be replenished until you go back to base.

So while, yes, I agree that they are all health here if you want to get really specific - you also have to understand that when we talk about health in terms of itemization - you have to compare the act of buying health rather than health, the general stat.



Yes, which is why I'm asking for feedback on which tanky characters feel weak - those that relied upon conditional health mechanics. Some characters, for the most part, are fine - they were compensated in some way that they lost in resistances - but certain characters didn't make it out cleanly.

I mean, it would naive to think that we should go back and buff all shields because we changed this relationship because those characters may have gained or loss in other ways. Speed is easier to itemize for generally and a lot of characters needed durability to compensate for how hard it was to itemize for speed. Some characters are actually hurt by how generalized it is to itemize for speed and thus may need more attention than not.

Essentially - while in a vacuum this would be true, in the end, only the champion holistically matters.



A "noob trap" is something that is almost never right to buy ever - only one that looks good. Anything can tell you that stacking full HP without any armor still isn't the best call - otherwise double or triple warmog's would be the ideal build.

It's still right to buy armor sometimes, especially if you have a truckload of health behind it - it's just not right to buy it enough of the time.



True - but is it a more easily solveable problem than the flaws of the previous system? Hopefully, systematic changes are designed to shift focus from the problems you have and replace them with problems that are easier to solve or things that can meld together better. Essentially, you realize that you've hit a local minimum for "balance" or "optimality" so you take a step back to find better ground somewhere else.
Give back the damage to Death cap, along with the changes to zhonya's and deathfire and you will bring the AP's back.

@zerothma: That's probably due to his ulti which makes him ungodly tanky late game. Its a compensation thing, I think.


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Noblepeasant

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01-24-2013

@ Xypherous

I feel like the issue with warmogs is complex. Because of the effectiveness of armor / MR pen, people have started purchasing health instead of resists on all of the tanks / bruisers. Assassins have also become more prevalent (Talon, Kha, Eve, etc etc). These burst damage dealers are designed to take your carry from 100-0. To survive against Burst Champs (who are stacking Armor / MR Pen) an ADC is best building a Warmogs as their sole defensive item. The extra 1k health allow them to live through the burst damage. Their lifesteal allows them to sustain the rest of the fight after surviving the initial burst.

On an ADC who builds something like Bzerker Greaves, BT, Shiv, LW, IE, there is NO better defensive item than Warmogs.

Is this a problem? I don't know. I feel that Warmogs is way too inexpensive for it's slot efficiency. It is now being built on Bruiser Top, Jungle, ADC, APC, and sometimes support as well. This doesn't speak to item diversity much.

This could entirely be caused by the perception of armor / MR being worthless.


Specifically about warmogs, purchasing a warmogs isn't GOLD efficient because you are only purchasing 1 statistic (health). But that one relatively inexpensive purchase (2600ish gold) gives an ADC an additional 50% health, causing them to peak over the 3,000 mark. This is incredible SLOT EFFICIENCY. In a world where everyone just builds health, the ADC just got even stronger because he is going to lifesteal is way to victory. It gives enough health for an ADC to survive burst damage in the majority of games, and LS back to full in the blink of an eye because everyone else has tons of health too.

Every ADC in S2 build a GA. GA was annoying because you had to kill the ADC twice... but there was a period of time where the ADC wasnt doing damage.... and then a window where the active was down. Warmogs is always up, and it makes it EVEN HARDER to kill a ADC now.


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Kumamon JPN

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Health is not better than defense, health is better with defense than pure defense with little health.
And that's where people are getting the wrong inspiration and thought
"Oh everyone is stacking health now, health must be OP"
Wrong, it's because stacking health first than go for defensive stat now is better than buying defense stat straight up.

The current itemization for tanks is actually quite smooth,
maybe they should adjust a little with champions that scales too well with health,
but health really isn't as problematic as most people think right now.


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Purgation

Senior Member

01-24-2013

I genuinely feel bad for the design team... they have a bad habit of failing to anticipate the consequences of changes they make for good reasons... and then the worse habit of trying to defend a mistake rather than just fixing it and moving on.

All the S3 changes were intended to make AP mid a bit stronger and weaken the tanky/bruiser meta a bit.

What happened instead is we have a more (health stacking) defensive tank meta than ever, and AP mids are in even worse shape - - to the point of not being viable unless they bring some combination of additional utility, can stack health themselves, or good gap close / escape mechanics (e.g. Katrina)


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Cha0sniper

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud Potato View Post
I used to think this too, but your Attack Speed increases per level show up in the green part, and it is counted in your base AS. It's confusing as hell and is very stupid.
You're actually completely wrong. AS per level has never scaled off of % AS increases, but the fact that it increased the white number made it look like it did. That's the exact reason this change was made, because it was very confusing BEFORE, and this post is proof of that.


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Goumindong

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01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud Potato View Post
Not going to argue against you, but I'd like to make one point. Making Health the better defensive item to begin with was intentional. Armor gets better as you buy more Health. This is the way they wanted it; before you built Armor and MR and then ealth afterward.

Also, please do a comparison of how much EHP you get from Armor against an enemy with Armor pen vs without Armor Pen, because if Armor is really useless, then this should reflect this rather than a direct comparison with Health.
Did it in the post you're quoting. You gain more EHP against physical damage with health than you do with armor even if the enemy has armor penetration.

In addition: Health items are more "defense efficient" in that they don't tend to have extraneous effects on them that don't increase your tankiness. I.E. warmogs gives you at least half a potion forever in addition to health. Frozen Heart gives you 20% CDR and 800 gold worth of mana. Neither of which tend to make characters takier or sustainier.

So, what ends up happening is that people will get armor yes, but they get armor from things that also have health on them, its a "nice side bonus"

As stated, this removes the ability to effectively counter play against champions


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nillthium

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01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
If BV refreshed on 30 seconds CD again with no drawbacks and strictly applied to only single target effects it might be good again.
.
so basically if you are getting cced by aoe spell BV wont help?
are you fine with that?

btw hashinshin -

WHY YOU NO STREAM MORE!?!?!?!