@Xyph, is resists being less effective than health in S3 bad design?

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Pushover

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashaira View Post
Ever thought about giving a tooltip stating how much an item would increase ur EHP?

This may not solve the UI problem but it will present resists better over the course of several games.

For example you have 1k hp and 50 armor. U go to the shop click on chain vest once and below its stats is a line of text that says "This will increase your EHP versus physical dmg by X ammount" with X being red for armor and blue for magic and and in case of buying items that would increase ur EHP differently for the 2 types of dmg (pure hp items or items with multiple stats) you can have 2 lines, one for each type of dmg.

This will help players understand the game better AND present resists better.
While it helps figure out EHP in a vacuum, things like 8% pen from masteries, flat pen runes, etc will affect EHP in those situations. EHP is much messier to calculate since it depends on what your opponents have as well, since there's no good way to go back from EHP to calculate armor pen. I can't say 'I have 2000 EHP, whats my EHP after dealing with 20 armor pen?'

It would help new players a bit to understand resistances, but it's also a bit deceiving and counterintuitive that buying the item with the greatest EHP increase in the tooltip may not result in the greatest EHP increase.


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sniperfodderz

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Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Somewhere, in my unspoken secret dreams, I'd like to rip Kayle's passive off and give her her old one back.
.
Oh man, please please please do that? At least make an item for it or something.
Let's make the crusader wreck some $*%!


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Vahlen

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post

If characters are weak and unviable - then yes, you can solve it with a type of system that forces you to play with weak and unviable characters by making it so that the ideal composition is weak. However, I'm not sure that really solves anything about those characters to begin with.
Yet here we sit with an enormous amount of champions that are not even considered ranked/tournament worthy, far more than in S1 arguably...........I think that should be a pretty damn big deal.


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Dearnis

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Udyr, Udyr, Udyr. I never see him anymore. He used to be one of my top junglers. But he's a weaker ganker in a gank-focused jungle, he's reliant on resists, and he needed to itemize for speed so bad.


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Ashaira

Adjudicator

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pushover242 View Post
While it helps figure out EHP in a vacuum, things like 8% pen from masteries, flat pen runes, etc will affect EHP in those situations. EHP is much messier to calculate since it depends on what your opponents have as well, since there's no good way to go back from EHP to calculate armor pen. I can't say 'I have 2000 EHP, whats my EHP after dealing with 20 armor pen?'

It would help new players a bit to understand resistances, but it's also a bit deceiving and counterintuitive that buying the item with the greatest EHP increase in the tooltip may not result in the greatest EHP increase.
well its a bad idea to give players a freaking spread sheet.

yes ur EHP is also based on some enemy stats HOWEVER the EHP tips in store should just be based on THE BUYERS STATS. It may not give the most correct answer in terms of number but it will give a good hint at what to buy next (ur mid and facing an ahri? well she does magic dmg, she prob has some magic pen and that true dmg but it will give u a pretty god guess on weather if you should buy that ruby crystal or that mantle)


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Raptoreyes

Senior Member

01-24-2013

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Originally Posted by Raptamei View Post
This is depressing because it's true. You often can't even agree on who goes to which lane without having some dimwit throw a tantrum and toss the game. And on the st§rategic front there are so many people who win their lane, have no idea what to do next and end up just defending and putting out fires for twenty minutes until they lose.

One has to wonder if LoL succeeded because it takes much of the teamwork and long term strategy out of Dota and reduces it to straightforward ritual interactions between players (jungler gives second blue to mid) and a rigid gameplan (lane-gank-siege-teamfight-baron).

In that case, one could argue that these interactions and this gameplan themselves are not intuitive and should perhaps be communicated more clearly. This then leads into lane queue and other controversial features...
I think you have touched on part of what made LOL so much better then DoTA. The other feature is the very high surviveablility to damage to damage ratio (in survivablitiy favor) in LOL. Get hit with any three spells in DOTA and you were almost dead. Even the most bursty champs in LOL require some harrass first to gib somebody in a full combo. This high damage to survivablity made LOL good for those who could not react fast (like myself). People who need an extra full sec or two tend to appreciate all the defenses and it was a reason why tanky dps was meta at middle tier play pretty much solidly while it was only meta at high tier occasionally during season 1 and 2.

I feel the high survivability and fault tollerance of this game is becoming imperialed by the season 3 changes. We have not reached DOTA or HoN styles of speed in this game but we are getting unconfortably close for anybody playing much over 150-200ping. Also the new power of assassins is bringing in much of the high rates of toxic game play you find in HoN and DoTA in spite of the damping effect that the Tribunal has.


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IS1f442d335a64271272cbd

Member

01-24-2013

I think that the problem is there isnt any viable counter to stacking hp. Stacking hp was also viable on S2 but we havent seen it that often like now (especially in the last tournement). The main problem is that there isnt any good counter form hp... Bork is dealing precent of correct hp unlike the MBR, DFG was nerfed and liandra's damage is unnotticed bcause it deal 5% of max health over 3 secounds while you gain 1.5% of your own hp every secound from warmogs not to mantion that you have some MR to reduce the dmg. The other reason for stacking hp is armor/MR reduction and penetration. Because precentage armor pen is apllied before flat armor penetration and because of the new BC is is too easy for ADC to ignore armor and making HP much more viable. You have to give tanks better deffense option that hp since mr and armor are kind of useless.

What is going to happen:
1. No more mages/ap carries/assassins
2. Mid lane=Wukong/Kha'zix/Zed/Olaf
3. ADC build: bloodthirsterX3+boots+warmong'sX2

Options to fix this:
1. Add better counters for high hp (life steal isnt the answer here)
2.Nerf HP items and change penetration stacking (make it like tenacity or chnage it back to the way it was in season 2)


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3mptylord

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Yes, burst mages do get hit when health becomes the dominant statistic - mostly because, it turns out that health is a pretty good substitute for magic resistance when the going gets rough.

There's various implications of that - but that's why you see things like Liandry or DFG existing. We're doing an AP pass next patch to help mages out - and after that we can start looking at specific characters if they still feel weak.
I'm still reading through this thread, but this bit in particular scared me. Last time we had high-health meta, you whacked out a lot of AP buffs. Then when the meta shifted, APs were overpowered and a lot of them were subsequently nerfed. The issue with high-health meta is only that all the changes made to cater it completely kill carry/glass-cannon builds.


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MrJoestar

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Junior Member

01-24-2013

Sorry Xypherous but you are terrible wrong with this, its NO normal all pro players pick warmog vs resistance items, even if you are a ADC, banshee vs warmog? mercurial vs warmog? GA vs warmog?, Always won warmogs. I try on resistance items, but simple dont work.

PD: Not mention champs like Olaf/Shen with warmogs + sunfire + spirit visage become really stupid and inmortals.


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Raptoreyes

Senior Member

01-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJoestar View Post
Sorry Xypherous but you are terrible wrong with this, its NO normal all pro players pick warmog vs resistance items, even if you are a ADC, banshee vs warmog? mercurial vs warmog? GA vs warmog?, Always won warmogs. I try on resistance items, but simple dont work.

PD: Not mention champs like Olaf/Shen with warmogs + sunfire + spirit visage become really stupid and inmortals.
Complete hyperbole, the build just pushes down their damage. They survive a bit better vs 3 players, perhaps long enough to blow thier cc and maybe get a spell or an auto attack or two off. Immortals they are not.. not even in lane, just simply the last to get focused down. Warmogs is fine but many other items need more hp on them to right the balance that was lost when resists were made 20% more expensive and penitration was made to scale to endgame. If anything tanks and brusers are less tanky then they have ever been before in this game.